Pass through rock - furniture and monsters

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I think what I'm trying to say, but not very well, is that at if you stick with the original rule, then at least you are using a term "wall" which is already defined in the rulebook "The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls)" which is far simpler than trying to expand the rule to use "anything composed entirely of non-living rock" which is far from clearly defined...

Fair enough, but by the rules (at least implicit, if not fully explicit) regular blocked hall tiles placed on the map are also walls. The fact that they take up a whole square has more to do with the physical practicality of using a full-square tile vs trying to place thin, moveable lines on the map. In either case, a white line wall or a blocked hall tile are each perfectly capable of having either open space or solid stone behind them.

The rules state that blocked squares may represent extra walls OR a collapsed ceiling and the falling block trap is the later. It seems like the original rule didn't allow you to pass through a fallen block, but then under that rule set these could be removed using disarm under those versions, so it isn't clear to me how you are supposed to tell whether a blocked square tile already existing on the board (as opposed to triggered by a trap) is an extra wall that can be passed through or a collapsed ceiling that cannot be passed through.

Personally I never liked (and so I removed) the aspect of disarming that removes pits and fallen blocks from the board, so it makes more sense to allow pass through rock to allow passing through blocked square tiles (whatever their origin) but if you do that then why should you not be able to pass through any other "solid rock" square. I'm not looking to rock the boat here, just understand how people play this and find an approach that is simple and consistent.

So I think TheLastChaosWarrior's version* may be the better one...
1. Under the influence of this spell you may pass through solid rock squares, walls and blocked square tiles (all of which are defined terms) - change
2. The EWP placing any newly discovered room/passages as discovered (i.e. when you move onto a square adjacent to a new passage or room, then the passage or room is revealed) - no change
3. No movement through occupied squares, whether they are occupied by monsters or furniture (irrespective of the specific gravity of the material) as per standard rules - no change
4. Movement ending on a blocked square tile and/or solid rock tile = dead

*acknowledging that this is a modification of the original, as under the rules for the original HeroQuest (ft. Morcar as opposed to Zargon or Daemon King) the spell doesn't allow movement through solid rock, only walls (and potentially, arguably, blocked squares or not)

So no issue with getting stuck inside monsters or furniture, which is a plus, what about...
a) Moving through a wall that contains a (closed) door? I would allow this as a wall is a wall even if it contains a door
b) Moving through a wall that contains a (closed) secret door? I would allow this as a wall is a wall even if it contains a door
c) Handling of monsters that get revealed in an area that is blocked off by closed doors? I would allow them to open doors to get to the hero

I know all this seems "basic" and potentially stating the obvious (even "common sense" if such a concept exists) but if you read this, then go back and read the first few original posts, you can see that what we are discussing here is very different to those interpretations!

For example

If a hero has't used up all his movement and the EWP doesn't activate the room the hero canalways ask something like "Can I end my move here without dying?" - Answer is either "Yeah, sure", because the hero sees of course where he is, or "Well, no, try another space". There's a little gambling, hero ends his movement whenever he wants to(may even walk back; die roll is maximum of course) and I tell him if he's alive...
Simple as that. That risk comes with gambling with spells.

If they end up on the same square as a monster, furniture or inside rock they die. It is the mages responsibility to have some idea where they are going to end up. Pass through rock can be used as an escape or to come to another heroes aid, if it's used as a short cut then the mage gambles with their life.

Fair enough

But if the player has squares left to move, he should at least be able to move through furniture, right? And if they take a chance and move into a room without opening a door (because it's locked or something) and there is a monster on the square on the other side...is the player simply not allowed to move to that square then?

It's kind of a killjoy for someone to find they've materialized in solid rock, GAME OVER.
I agree that if they have movement left Zarquon should say immediately if the room is solid or not.
As for landing on a monster or furniture, I'd simply bump the player sideways movement left or not.
The point of the game is more fun, less KILL THEM!

[Markus Darwath]

It never occurred to me that one wouldn't be able to wander around off the map (through solid stone), with the consequence that ending one's movement in said stone meant instant death. Speaking strictly from the perspective of the NA and re-release versions, I assumed the only real question was whether one could pass through furniture/closed doors.

A question was brought up about thinking the spell blinds a hero... My thinking is the spell doesn't blind, but if one is inside a full square of stone, they really can't see anything because it's just the inside of rock, there's no light in there.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Due to the lack of clarity in the original 1989 version, the 1990 remake (US) changed the wording/interpretation in an attempt to make it clearer, which may or may not have been entirely successful depending on your viewpoint (15 pages of debate suggests not 100% successful). Under the 1990 rules it mentions the end result of being trapped in solid rock, despite still only stating that you can pass through "walls" and not stating that you can pass through solid rock. It still doesn't clarify around occupied squares and how the "looking/revealing" rules are supposed to work.

In my opinion, neither version states how the "looking/revealing" rules work, which means that as "card text supersedes rulebook text" and the card text in this instance is around "movement" but not "looking" then the usual "looking" rules would still apply.

Look at the attached example, in normal play the Dwarf player could declare that he is looking into the room from his location (by opening the closed door) and the EWP would reveal the entire contents of room A.

pass through rock.png

Now consider the door in front of the Dwarf to be removed, the entire passage that the Dwarf is located in to be solid rock and the Dwarf to be moving under the influence of the Pass through Rock spell. Nothing that I can see in the rules would suggest that the following equivalent statement would not still be true...

The Dwarf player could declare that he is looking into the room from his location (by opening the closed door) and the EWP would reveal the entire contents of room A.

Despite being inside a full square of stone, with no light, he can still look into a room that is not inside rock and has light, being in darkness doesn't prevent you from seeing into the light.

EDIT: And if you imagine that the Orc was placed on the square directly the other side of the door in front of the Dwarf, then under the solid rock version, the Dwarf, once the room was revealed, would have to move a square to the left or right of his current position in order to step into the room.

If you accept that the text on the 1990 version, implies that you can pass through solid rock (even though it doesn't state that) they you could simply declare that the spell allows you to pass through all squares, and barriers between squares, that are usually impassable, walls, walls with closed doors, solid rock, blocked squares, occupied squares but that ending your turn on an impassable square = instant death (and presumably instant death for the monster in that circumstance).

Pass Through Rock

This spell can be cast on any one figure. That figure may then pass through solid matter when he next moves, including walls, closed doors, and squares blocked by furniture, figures and solid rock. Caution! If his movement ends on a blocked square then he is instantly killed.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

I think when under the influence of the spell, you have to step INTO the room to see it's contents.
Even though, in your solid passage example you are next to the room, you are still in rock, be it ably a few inches at this point.
The room is only visible once you cross the threshold into the room, otherwise there in no risk at all using the spell.
Your example compares looking through a door in the same location as being the same, but it's not. Your looking through a door, hence why you uncover the rooms contents. You don't get to see inside the room with no door, do you??

[Bareheaded Warrior]

There is still a risk, although you would have to be pretty careless to fall foul of it (which is a good thing as we are talking instant death here, so the maximum sentence!), as in the example given if our Dwarf only had one square of movement left and it turned out that there wasn't a Room A in this quest but just more solid rock then he'd be dead.

Under normal circumstances you are correct, you don't get to see inside the room with no door as you can't poke your head through the wall and look, on account of it being a solid barrier to your head, you have to open the door first and then poke your head through the door space (which is not solid) and look into the room to reveal the contents. Under the influence of the pass through rock spell you CAN poke your head through the wall and look because the wall isn't a solid barrier for you during your movement and "looking" is part of movement.

I don't see any reason that "looking" works any differently whilst under the influence of the spell than it does when not under the influence of the spell. The spell card text provides (limited) information that over-rules the standard movement rules i.e. you can move through objects that would normally block movement, but nothing on the spell card indicates that "looking" rules are any different.

The reason in this simple game for always revealing what you are moving into, a room or passage, BEFORE you move into it is so that you can always assess whether a square is viable for movement or not prior to moving. If you have to move into a room first to reveal what is in the room, including the square you are already on, then that creates something of a paradox.

[Markus Darwath]

I can agree that you could poke your head through a wall to look into the next room. Passing through wood, metal and other solids is a matter of preference. I would say no, just on the grounds that the spell title says "rock" and it's a matter of "vibrational densities". And I would absolutely disallow passing through living creatures for vague reasons of magic interacting with life-force. Now as far as revealing a room when you poke your head in, that's great if the square you're looking into is empty (or maybe contains a chest or similar low object), but if it's occupied by either a monster or large furniture, that's all you're going to see as line of sight is blocked. In the case of a fireplace, if there's a fire burning you would definitely take a point of damage and not want to go that way as you shove your face into the hot updraft. If the fireplace is cold, could you maybe step over the log grate and duck under the wood mantel? Sure, why not. I don't think it would be unreasonable for the EWP to rule that it takes an extra square of movement, and of course you cannot end your move occupying the same space as the fireplace.

Overall, I'm leaning toward the idea that this may be one of those cases where leaving the rule vague and up to the game master's discretion is the better course of action. Trying to make the rule definitive in applying to all situations is pretty much going to lead to the alternatives of either being overly complex and wordy, or overly simplified and board-gamey in a way that will not appeal to some players/groups who want a more immersive style of play.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

I can agree that you could poke your head through a wall to look into the next room. Passing through wood, metal and other solids is a matter of preference. I would say no, just on the grounds that the spell title says "rock" and it's a matter of "vibrational densities". And I would absolutely disallow passing through living creatures for vague reasons of magic interacting with life-force. Now as far as revealing a room when you poke your head in, that's great if the square you're looking into is empty (or maybe contains a chest or similar low object), but if it's occupied by either a monster or large furniture, that's all you're going to see as line of sight is blocked. In the case of a fireplace, if there's a fire burning you would definitely take a point of damage and not want to go that way as you shove your face into the hot updraft. If the fireplace is cold, could you maybe step over the log grate and duck under the wood mantel? Sure, why not. I don't think it would be unreasonable for the EWP to rule that it takes an extra square of movement, and of course you cannot end your move occupying the same space as the fireplace.

Overall, I'm leaning toward the idea that this may be one of those cases where leaving the rule vague and up to the game master's discretion is the better course of action. Trying to make the rule definitive in applying to all situations is pretty much going to lead to the alternatives of either being overly complex and wordy, or overly simplified and board-gamey in a way that will not appeal to some players/groups who want a more immersive style of play.

Yes, this is probably the most suitable answer for this question, and confirms again that ultimately, the GM is always right!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

but if it's occupied by either a monster or large furniture, that's all you're going to see as line of sight is blocked.

Monsters (or any figure) block LOS for the purposes of missile attacks not for the purposes of revealing what is on the board, if you look at the image I posted previously and imagine the Orc is positioned on the square behind the door, then when the Dwarf opens the door he will still see everything in the room, and that is still laid out on the board, whether he can shoot at it is an entirely different question that isn't relevant here. The taller furniture point is valid.

overly simplified and board-gamey in a way that will not appeal to some players/groups who want a more immersive style of play.

That is exactly what I'm attempting to do here, agree on an overly simplified board-gamey way of handling this spell (as HQ is a simple board game) as a good place to start and I would be happy with that approach, and if players want more complexity then they can homebrew it themselves, hence the rest of the discussion!

Approach (1): the simplest board gamey approach

Adopt the strict "letter of the rules" approach, the text states "walls" only, walls are defined as the white lines, so remove the piece of text that confuses blocked square tiles with walls, and restrict movement to through walls only under this spell.

Comments:
a) The looking / reveal rules work exactly as usual.
b) You cannot pass through blocked squares, fallen blocks, furniture, enemy figures
c) You can pass through closed doors (secret or normal) as these are in walls (placed on the white lines) - opinions may vary
d) How does the EWP handled monsters revealed by this spell that "cannot" open doors?
e) How do you handle taller furniture blocking sight?

Blocked Squares
These tiles should be placed according to the map in the Quest Book as soon as they become visible to a character player. These tiles show where extra walls have been built, or wherea ceiling has fallen in. Neither characters or monsters may move through blocked squares.

Pass Through Rock
This spell may be cast on any one player. That player may then move through walls, as if the wall contained a door, when he next moves. The player may move through as many walls as his movement will allow. The spell is then discarded.

Approach (2): Include blocked squares (tiles) & solid rock

Comments:
Same as above and...
(e) what happens if their turn ends on a blocked square tile and/or solid rock - presumably they are killed instantly

Approach (3): Include furniture

Comments:
Same as above and...
(f) may be more complexity around furniture composition, or not - personally I would ignore this aspect in the interests of keeping it simple and just opt to treat squares blocked by furniture as a standard "blocked square"

Approach (4): Include enemy figures

Comments:
Same as above and ...
(g) need to worry about what happens to spell user and the occupier...this could get complex...

So maybe option 3 is far enough? but even then there are still unresolved issues (c),(d) & (e) with all approaches even the simplest board-gamey approach.

[wallydubbs]

I generally go with the 3rd approach. You can't count monsters too, that's what Veil of Mist is for.
Otherwise Cloak of Shadows (from Rise of the Dread Moon) wouldn't need to make the distinction that the Cloak possesses the combined power.

[Markus Darwath]

but if it's occupied by either a monster or large furniture, that's all you're going to see as line of sight is blocked.

Monsters (or any figure) block LOS for the purposes of missile attacks not for the purposes of revealing what is on the board, if you look at the image I posted previously and imagine the Orc is positioned on the square behind the door, then when the Dwarf opens the door he will still see everything in the room, and that is still laid out on the board, whether he can shoot at it is an entirely different question that isn't relevant here. The taller furniture point is valid.

There is a slight difference though. The Dwarf opening a door with a monster immediately inside isn't attempting to occupy the square the monster is in and being halted/rebounded with opaque matter in between. Basically, it could be seen as a question of whether the hero has time to observe the whole room in the instant that he leans through the wall and finds himself with a facefull of monster. Again, seems like a Zargon's call kind of situation depending on the playing style of the group. I could even see someone going as far as using the hero's MP as a basis to decide how much they're able to notice in that situation. Certainly if this were a complex game like D&D the scenario would call for a skill check to determine how much was noticed besides the monster.
I can say that IRL I'm not very good at the game of briefly glancing at a picture and being able to identify what was in it. But again, that leans into the basic question of how much immersion/role-play does the group want in the game, given that HQ is a board game, but is also a dungeon crawler. Presumably, players are choosing HeroQuest precisely because it has a different feel vs. something like Sorry or Monopoly.