Ye Olde Inn

Vorimir wrote:You can pass walls but no monsters or furniture sonyou cant enter a room if the square has a monster or furniture. Simple.

That appears simple, but is not complete. Rather like explaining to someone who wants to learn to drive that you just "need to put your foot down on the gas and turn the steering wheel" simple, but not complete.

For example it doesn't cover whether you can pass through closed doors, secret doors, blocked square tiles, it doesn't explain why you can pass through a solid stone wall but get blocked by a stone fireplace, stone tomb, or a stone gargoyle on the other side, or how the "revealing" of the contents of unexplored areas works (unless by not mentioning that you are assuming, like me, that those general rules remain unchanged)

As mentioned above I can see 2 possible, workable and more complete solutions

1) The narrow interpretation - taking the text literally with its reference to "walls" so all normal rules apply EXCEPT that the character can move through walls, the white lines on the board. So no movement through furniture, monsters or solid rock, all other general rules remain the same.

But there would still be a decision to make around "Blocked Square Tiles" as these are described (under Second Edition rules - I haven't check North American rules but this may still apply to either or both of the blocked square and/or falling block tiles as these are different tiles under NA, although the rules seem to treat them exactly the same once placed) as "These tiles show where extra walls have been built, or where a ceiling has fallen in" so these are potentially walls also. I would suggest that if a hero under the influence of the Pass through Rock spell attempts to move through a "Blocked Square Tile" the EWP would check the Quest Map as if there is open space the other side then this would could as a wall and would be permitted, if solid rock then it would could as a cave-in and be impassable.

General "reveal" rules would still remain in play, there is nothing on the card to indicate otherwise, so as soon as the player indicates that they are about to move into an unexplored area then the EWP would lay out the contents as standard, so normal movement rules regarding monsters, furniture would apply.

May also still be a decision around whether a character under the influence could attack through walls, shoot through walls, and whether they could move through closed doors (which are after all located within a wall)

This is workable but does leave the "isolated monster" issue around what the EWP can/should do with monsters revealed in rooms without the door being opened. Whilst the rulebook does state that monsters CANNOT open doors, I have always assumed that this is more of a monsters DON'T open doors, as they have no reason to, they don't know that there are heroes on the other side, and represents the heroes having the initiative, and exploring the dungeon. Obviously monsters CAN open doors, how else did they get into the rooms in the first place, so I think, in these circumstances it would be reasonable to assume that monsters WOULD open doors necessary to pursue the influenced hero.

2) The broad interpretation - if you consider not just the text on the card but the broader context of the card, the name of the spell "Pass through Rock" and the fact that it is an Earth elemental spell* then a broader interpretation could make sense.

This would allow the character under the influence to pass through any and all solid matter, walls, blocked square tiles, solid rock, doors, furniture, monsters and so on.

General "reveal" rules would still remain in play, there is nothing on the card to indicate otherwise, so as soon as the player indicates that they are about to move into an unexplored area then the EWP would lay out the contents as standard.

This is workable but still leaves the same "isolated monster" issue around what the EWP can/should do with monsters revealed in rooms without the door being opened, options above.

I think I prefer the broader interpretation on balance, but might amend, to resolve the "isolated monster" issue.

*Elementary My Dear Watson

In the world of HeroQuest, as in our own world in ages past, all matter was seen as being composed of varying proportions of only four (generally, some have a fifth - aether or void, that the other elements sit in) elements earth, water, air (or wind), fire. Search for "Classical Elements" on a search engine of your choice for more details.

These represent, amongst other things, the four states of matter earth - solid, water - liquid, air (or wind) - gas and fire - plasma, so the Earth element represents the property of solidity, that which prevents things from passing though it, unlike water, air or fire, in all matter in varying proportions.

Veil of Mist

As others have stated this second option does leave Veil of Mist feeling underpowered but not all spells must be equally powerful, perhaps boosting Veil of Mist is the answer here, a hero veiled in mist can pass unchallenged through squares occupied by monsters, perhaps the mist would hinder his opponents ability to attack, so he would get a defend boost counting any shield as a shield whilst under the influence, or just getting an extra defend die, or simply cannot be attacked that turn, or maybe the solution is for the spell to last longer than a single round, until a double is rolled on the movement dice maybe...

The explanation is easy, as you say you can wall through walls. Thats all. Trying to look for a more realistic or conplex ecplanation is against a very very straightforward and sinñle game as Heroquest where dice rolling and fun are yus the main goals.

Walls are walls, nor door, furnitures, fallin rock traps, etc.

Now I'm imagining an orc standing next to a wall and a wizards hand comes out of the stone, slapping him about the head while trying to find an empty spot to enter the room.

I too am seeking simple, straight-forward and consistent rules as that is the spirit of HeroQuest, but sometimes complicated discussions may be necessary to produce simple rules, sort of like distillation. As long as the end result is simple and consistent and fun to play then the complexity of the discussions that the Designers had to produce the rule is irrelevant.

Examples of the opposite effect would be the text on the Courage spell (or Pass through Rock), or omitting the "cannot be combined with a shield" from the crossbow card, a few simple lines of text, followed by decades of debate!

Inconsistency within the rules themselves, makes them harder to remember, and can break immersion, so I try to avoid that.

New Wizard Player is reading Pass through Walls Spell Card
New Wizard Player: "Cool so I can pass through walls, those are the white lines yeah? And what is this square tile on the board showing what look like bricks?"
EWP: "Yes you can and that is a blocked square tile, it show where extra walls have been built"
New Wizard Player: "Extra walls...so I can pass through that square as well then"
EWP: "Errr no"
New Wizard Player: "But you said they were also walls and the spell card says I can pass through walls, this makes no sense I'm going to go and play Monopoly"

My option (2) above could be included on the card as (first draft!)

Pass Through Rock
This spell may be cast on any one character. That character may then move through solid objects when they next move. The character may move through as many solid objects as their movement will allow, but will be killed instantly if they end their turn on a square occupied by a solid object. The spell is then discarded.

Vorimir wrote:The explanation is easy, as you say you can wall through walls. Thats all. Trying to look for a more realistic or conplex ecplanation is against a very very straightforward and sinñle game as Heroquest where dice rolling and fun are yus the main goals.

Walls are walls, nor door, furnitures, falling rock traps, etc.

Easy, but not clear, hence my challenge here.

1. You can walk through walls (and only walls) as the card implies, walls are defined in the rulebook as "the rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls)" but then Blocked Square tiles are described in the rulebook as "These tiles show where extra walls have been built, or where a ceiling has fallen in." so they are walls that fail to meet the definition of walls. So can you move through them or not? One simple way to resolve this one is to delete the piece that I have put in italics.

2. You can walk through walls "the white lines" but is a wall still a wall if someone builds a door in it (or for that matter a secret door). I assume that you would still be able to pass through a closed door or a wall containing a secret door (without opening it) as whilst doors are not walls, doors are located in walls, if they weren't then closed doors wouldn't block movement, you would simply move round it.

3. Under this simple model how do you handle the revealing of what is behind the wall, when a player whose hero is under the influence of this spell and they state "I'm moving through this wall here and indicate a wall section adjacent to the square they are on". Personally I reveal and layout the contents of the room or passage behind that section of wall exactly as if the wall section contained a door that they had just declared they were opening and if this means that the adjacent square is occupied by furniture or an enemy figure then their movement will be blocked and assuming they have sufficient movement squares remaining they will have to move again and "open" another wall section. Obviously it isn't actually an open door so this applies during the movement part of their turn whilst under the effects of the spell. But I do allow monsters that are placed on the board as a result of this situation to open doors to get out of the room, as I don't think "monsters CANNOT open doors or chests" is accurate, just under normal circumstances they DON'T but this isn't a normal situation. I don't understand why many seem to play this as if the hero loses the ability to see, if I was to smash my head through a wall (I'm not demonstrating this, just consider it a thought experiment) then I would be able to see what was on the other side, so presumably if I was to cast a spell on myself that allows me to pass through walls then I should be able to poke my head through and take a look around...

So in summary

Blocked Squares
These tiles should be placed according to the map in the Quest Book as soon as they become visible to a character player. These tiles show where extra walls have been built, or wherea ceiling has fallen in. Neither characters or monsters may move through blocked squares.

Pass Through Rock
This spell may be cast on any one player. That player may then move through walls, as if the wall contained a door, when he next moves. The player may move through as many walls as his movement will allow. The spell is then discarded.
Note: Monsters revealed in this situation MAY, on their turn, open doors to get out of the room.

I'm just interested in how other people play these situations...

personally, since the spell title is "Pass Through Rock" I would rule that the hero can move through anything made of inanimate stone (moving through an active gargoyle would just be a step too far). So no wood or metal doors. Stone furniture could be done, but only if it was just stone; a sarcophagus with a corpse and/or treasure inside would halt movement. Blocked and rubble filled squares would be passable, but the biggest caveat here would be that blocked hall squares often do not have empty space behind them. One had better be sure of their remaining movement. Moving through a fireplace would be potentially dangerous if there's a fire burning in it, and you couldn't actually get through the center part if it contains firewood or an iron grate. (Hero: "I step through the wall here." Zargon: "the stone is very hot. You lose one body point, and something stops you from passing all the way through." Hero: "OW! Hey guys, I think there's a fireplace in use behind here."

I kind of touched on this theme earlier in the thread, but for me if you extend the scope of spell from just walls, to anything made of rock, due to the title mentioning rock, then following this logic you should extend it fully to anything containing the earth element, due to it being an earth element spell, in which case you could move through everything that is solid (as earth is the only solid element). But as you extend it, it becomes more complicated to handle which is why I'm trying to stick closer to the original.

For example, do we really need to be concerned about whether a stone sarcophagus contains treasure, does 50 gold coins really block movement whether you are under the effects of a spell or not? If a hero is killed carrying 50 gc and therefore drops them that doesn't block movement? If you kill an Orc then his corpse doesn't block movement so why would putting it into a sarcophagus block movement in situations where the sarcophagus doesn't? What if you can't open the sarcophagus, how will you know what the composition is of what is inside it? Does a stack of firewood or a iron grate block movement, couldn't you just step over it? Does every fireplace contain a lit fire? Does the picture frame depicted on the fireplace block movement? Is metal just reformed rock (ore)? if bones fossilise do they just count as stone? this just seems too concerned with minutiae for me

The other aspect is if you attempt to pass through a wall and there is a table or chest on the other side, why would "something stop you passing through", presumably you could see that it is a table or chest as you have just stuck your head through the wall, and for that matter you could see everything else in the room, the spell doesn't mention inducing temporary blindness.

I think what I'm trying to say, but not very well, is that at if you stick with the original rule, then at least you are using a term "wall" which is already defined in the rulebook "The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls)" which is far simpler than trying to expand the rule to use "anything composed entirely of non-living rock" which is far from clearly defined...

Blackthorn wrote:

chaoticprime wrote:If the poor Hero to use the spell gets cut off by a cupboard he's toast. That's the risk in using the spell.

I think that's way too harsh. Imagine visiting the heroes mother and telling her that her son was killed during a quest....by a cupboard!

Hahaha, I love it.

I always thought this spell was one of the easier ones to understand!!!!
Pass through rock, walls and blocked square tiles, with EWP placing any newly discovered room/corridors as discovered.
That pretty much negates the problem of finishing on an occupied square.
If they end on a shaded area, they are trapped in rock and die.
Personally I never use the spell for going into undiscovered areas unless it's a room I want to scout out making sure I have enough moves left to get back out of the room.

Bareheaded Warrior wrote:I think what I'm trying to say, but not very well, is that at if you stick with the original rule, then at least you are using a term "wall" which is already defined in the rulebook "The rooms are enclosed by white lines (the walls)" which is far simpler than trying to expand the rule to use "anything composed entirely of non-living rock" which is far from clearly defined...

Fair enough, but by the rules (at least implicit, if not fully explicit) regular blocked hall tiles placed on the map are also walls. The fact that they take up a whole square has more to do with the physical practicality of using a full-square tile vs trying to place thin, moveable lines on the map. In either case, a white line wall or a blocked hall tile are each perfectly capable of having either open space or solid stone behind them.