TPK, total party kill

[bruenor]

If the party playing is a good one, they would wait until the dead hero(es) have had a chance to fight back to the light, and "camp" at the bodies to save the equipment and stuff.

[Big Bene]

I love the idea of the "afterwold" quest, as seemingly do many of you. Perhaps we should dedicate a thread of its own to it, or even a community project.

I think it would also work for a single Hero death, as it would give the player something to do for the rest of a session. Simply place the Hero in a blocked-off quadrant of the board and play a seperate Quest for him on his turns. If he can fight through back to the light at half Body Points, then he could survive for the next Quest.

Good points, but I think Bruenor has intended it to handle a TPK, making it less frustrating for the players and avoiding the loss of the remaining campaign, which he probably had put some work in. Giving every hero the chance to "come back" would take the tension out of the game, make it unbalanced and also slow it down. So for me it would be
SPK (single player kill) = dead as by the original rules
TPK = limbo quest.
But then again, as Bruenor had put it, there should be a "reason" why the heroes are kept in "limbo", such as a spell or (hiden) artifact. For a TPK, the evil wizard player can just make up such a reason, but we still can introduce an artifact or the like that will give a single hero (or any part of the party) the chance to come back. This would work only a couple of times, so players would have think when to use it and death will still be a thread.

Some of you may remember Neverwinter Nights, the D&D computer game with the great quest editor. Some time ago,
I started (and halfway finished) a very similar project - a quest for a killed player character to play in the afterworld.
It started in the house of Death (the skythe guy), from where one had to escape, crossing the river Styx.
Next location was "Limbo", a city where one could find the portals to the "outer planes" (places of the gods and deceased souls) for the 9 "alignments" of the D&D universe.

[bruenor]

Those are excellent points Bene.

Limited use of such artifacts/spells would indeed still leave the threat of total death over the party, maybe introduce a new quest or two to find such a treasure?
I don't think that single deaths should automatically qualify for a Limbo quest, there should be a reason it's happened, maybe even down to the Evil wizards discretion, or the element of chance by adding a dice roll onto any limbo quest artifact/spell, with it failing on certain rolls, and maybe even crumbling into nothing on say a roll of 1.
Such magics should be classed as ancient and unstable at best, and not to be entirely trusted.

When I did it, the whole thing was off the cuff and probably not as well thought through as it could have been, but it made for an interesting fill in quest, but wouldn't want the heroes to rely on that.

[torilen]

Just in case anyone might want to use them, and haven't seen them yet - my expanded monsters
has a few ghost/incorpreal creatures, and my supplement also has a lesser version of a ghost.

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=1212

[Daedalus]

If a lone monster moves before it kills a Hero, it must spend its next turn leaving the room or passage before it can move back into it to claim the possessions.

I don't think that's what they meant to be honest. If a monster kills a hero, he's mostly already next to him/her. Then on the next turn, it can loot the corpse if it wasn't looted by another hero (which can only be done by searching for treasure, and that can only be done by killing the monster near the corpse). So you better kill that monster, or he takes the loot.

To me it appears that there was no "they" at this point, but rather this is the result of one person's rules change from the first to second printing. I'm guessing that is person was Stephen Baker. Judging by the lack of grammar editing evidenced by the odd placement of commas, a proper proofreading wasn't given to this rule. Interpretation is indeed necessary, and your take makes a lot of sense. That too was my first impression. I'm rules-lawyering here to explore the literal side and decide if the rule has merit.

Another problem with the rule-as-written is what to do on Morcar's next turn when a Hero dies in a room with other Heroes and monsters that aren't yet killed. Since Heroes aren't permitted to search with a monster in the same room or corridor, they can't pick up the dead Hero's possessions. Whether a monster needs to move into the room or just be present, it isn't restricted as a Hero with search actions and thus may claim the possessions. Again, kinda broken. If monsters aren't required to move into the room, they simply need to survive until Morcar's next turn to claim the dead Hero's Equipment and gold.

If the restriction is used that a monster must move into the room or corridor, I guess Heroes could block any exits. Yet, this wouldn't work in a single-square corridor where a monster could simply retreat and move back in after killing the lead Hero. Double-square corridors would also be difficult to block off at both ends. It's worse if a monster isn't required to move into the corridor. It kills the Hero, the Heroes fail to kill it or a monster behind it, then the possessions are claimed by Morcar.

It's clear to see why this rule was redone in the NA Instruction Booklet. That rewrite better matches what you already interpret and avoids all of the ambiguous pitfalls. It does, however, lack the 1-turn grace period. I'll probably stick with the NA rule. I imagine EU players have handled the problems well enough with thematicaly-guided common-sense.

[mainat]

Interesting topic.

I just recently had a TPK, and have created a new version of that quest (as the manual suggests). What I did though was had most of the equipment and gold that was lost from the previous group stashed away in a secret treasure/armory room. In a real make-believe world, chances are that equipment/gold wouldn't have left the complex anyways...at least not right away, so there is some logic there.

[mikemacdee]

I would just have a new team of heroes go in and give them a couple items from the dead guys' inventories. "Here's all that remains of the party who went before thee. Good luck." And change the quest considerably, of course, to keep it fresh. I really like the "add their stuff to the treasure hoard" idea too.

Although I'm likely to have the heroes try a different adventure with a different group first. Again, to keep the game fresh. Somewhere down the line they end up on the same path as the unfortunate party who hilariously died.

The Trial comes too early. I once came up with a system to value the first 14 Quests. Correctly placed, The Trial should have occured as Quest 7!

It's debatable. You ever hear of the Kobayashi Maru test in Star Trek? The scenario isn't meant to be won -- it's meant as a test of character. I treat The Trial the same way: it tests how well the heroes can work as a team. If they all get wiped out, I'd have it turn out to be a "simulation" created by Mentor (basically to break in new players and/or Zargons). They don't keep the loot, but they know what to expect now. Well, they would if there were any traps or secret doors, which there aren't. Which is lame for a first quest.

I was always iffy about hero death, TPK or not. The rules state that you can save yourself when your body points reach zero, but another hero can't, which is odd to me: when you're dealt a deathblow you're in pain and shock and hardly have time to quaff a potion or cast a spell to immediately save yourself. And even if you do, certainly another hero should be able to do the same for you. I tend to use the "gathering dead hero loot" rule for saving a comrade's life: if you get to the same room or corridor where he fell before his next turn, you have a chance to save him. Maybe you stabilize him so he can reach the next quest (sans reward), or maybe you can only save him by using a spell or potion to restore his body points.

I also leave hero loot where the hero fell most of the time, and force the heroes to "search for treasure" to pick it up. If they forget where it was dropped, it's lost forever.

[bruenor]

I was always iffy about hero death, TPK or not. The rules state that you can save yourself when your body points reach zero, but another hero can't

I've always ignored the rule about heal yourself, others can't, totally stupid rule.
If you are friends enough to venture into a monster filled dungeon/area then I'm pretty sure you'll heal your team mate if he's down.

[Patroclus]

In our group we totally ignore the rule to use a potion when you have reached zero body points. With that rule is almost impossible to die. But on the other hand, in our game when you die you are unconscious. You lose the quest, you lose the 1/3 of your gold (which is a pain), and you roll one combat dice for each of your items and with a skull it is broken from the fall. In the next quest you are alive again ready to play with your friends.

[knightkrawler]

I'm gonna steal this idea and give it a few tweeks...