Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

[Daedalus]

• A Hero standing on a square adjacent to an open door can see (and can be seen by) everything in the room or corridor that he is adjacent to . . .

. . . Does that help, or just confuse matters further?

I'm not sure on the part about a Hero (in a room) adjacent to an open door looking out into a corridor he is adjacent to. It seems to me he should only see three squares into the corridor: one square directly in front of him and the two diagonally adjacent squares on either side. The walls containing the door block line of sight to the rest of a corridor, right?

[Kurgan]

• A Hero standing on a square adjacent to an open door can see (and can be seen by) everything in the room or corridor that he is adjacent to . . .

. . . Does that help, or just confuse matters further?

I'm not sure on the part about a Hero (in a room) adjacent to an open door looking out into a corridor he is adjacent to. It seems to me he should only see three squares into the corridor: one square directly in front of him and the two diagonally adjacent squares on either side. The walls containing the door block line of sight to the rest of a corridor, right?

Right, if the corridor is parallel to the door I would agree with what you say above. If the corridor were leading straight out from the door, then he could see in that straight line (a double corridor at best he'd see the one line of squares straight out from the door).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Note: Quotes are from the US rulebook

Example: If a Hero is six squares away from a closed door, he rolls 6 for his movement which takes him to the square next to the door, he then has the option to open the door or not, assuming he does then ...

When a Hero opens a door, place on the gameboard the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room.

Every group that I have played HeroQuest with has followed that rule, it is in the rulebook and it doesn’t seem to be contentious, however why are all the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room laid out when the Hero is in an adjacent square to the open door and NOT in that room and neither does he have line of sight to everything in that room?

It seems that there is another “seeing” rule in play that is not the usual “seeing” / line of sight rule that doesn’t seem to be mentioned in the rulebook (at least if it is then it isn't clear and neither myself or others can find it!

Discussions that I have seen and contributed to in this forum and elsewhere have suggested that this issue could be resolved using “assumed movement” a concept already present in HeroQuest – for example under searching from traps*

So, in essence what has been suggested is that when you open a door you effectively use the assumed movement logic to momentarily step into the room and back out again (assumed movement so no movement from the figure and no setting off of traps that might potentially exist in that square and similar) which means that you are momentarily in the room and can therefore see / are visually aware of (distinctly different from LOS) everything in that room.

My take on this is that it sounds complicated but is simple in practise and works and I just think of it as “a hero can just lean forward and momentarily peer through the door”

If we adopt that logic that a Hero on a square that is adjacent to an open door can momentarily pop his head through the open door and eyeball the contents of what lies beyond, then that must apply whether what lies beyond the open door is another room or a corridor (of either orientation)

*Whilst I’m not a fan of the searching rules in general and the searching for traps specifically I don’t have an issue with the idea of “assumed movement” just the implementation in those specific areas. I have extensively rewritten the searching rules under my own house rules (link in signature if you are interested) – I won’t bother going into that in detail here as I have waxed at length elsewhere on this forum but in this specific case when we are only talking about assumed movement into an adjacent square it isn’t much of a problem.

[Kurgan]

In the NA rules, the "revealing of everything in the room (except hidden traps, treasure and secret doors)" is an automatic thing that Zargon does when the door is opened, regardless of whether the Hero decides to step inside or not.

I used to think that maybe that was the case, but I was getting confused by other discussions regarding what you "see" when you are looking through a doorway (for the purposes of trying to target someone for a spell or missile attack).

Backtracking IS permitted in the NA rules, so a hero COULD step inside the door and then back out again, but it's not necessary to reveal the room's contents. Right?

So looking into part of a corridor (vs. entering the corridor in which case it gets revealed much like a room does, automatically) is more like looking through a doorway of a room that is already open, if that makes sense.

[Daedalus]

. . . My take on this is that it sounds complicated but is simple in practise and works and I just think of it as “a hero can just lean forward and momentarily peer through the door”

If we adopt that logic that a Hero on a square that is adjacent to an open door can momentarily pop his head through the open door and eyeball the contents of what lies beyond, then that must apply whether what lies beyond the open door is another room or a corridor (of either orientation). . .

Can a Hero also peer around a corner and see the entire contents of a new corridor? That would mean "looking" down a corridor doesn't imply a position with a straight line of sight. (I had always took it that looking down was part of actual movement positioning.) If the assumed movement principal can apply both ways through the doors of rooms, would you say the same principal works down corridors?

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In the NA rules, the "revealing of everything in the room (except hidden traps, treasure and secret doors)" is an automatic thing that Zargon does when the door is opened, regardless of whether the Hero decides to step inside or not.

I agree entirely and that is exactly what I’m saying, this rule exists (I refer to it as the "reveal" rule) and is correct and good and happens whilst the Hero is outside of the room and on an adjacent square by the opened door AND has absolutely nothing to do with any rules around line of sight and missile / ranged attack targeting which are separate and distinct.

So, by the same extension I think that rule should apply in all circumstances when a door is opened by a Hero in adjacent square to the now opened door and everything beyond that door, be in a room or a corridor is revealed

So looking into part of a corridor (vs. entering the corridor in which case it gets revealed much like a room does, automatically) is more like looking through a doorway of a room that is already open, if that makes sense.

The bit that I have put in italics is the issue for me, you are saying that if I enter the corridor then it gets reveal automatically like a room does, but that isn’t the case, the room contents has already been revealed prior to you entering it, so why the difference?

It doesn’t make sense to me that the rules around revealing stuff when you open a door would not be the same irrespective to the shape of the space revealed, a room or corridor (particularly as some rooms in HeroQuest are 2x6 and some corridors are also 2 squares wide and are longer). The rules as they currently stand suggest or at least are interpreted as …

if it’s a room use this “reveal” rule that is separate from and has absolutely nothing to do with line-of-sight rules as they aren’t relevant, but if it’s a corridor completely ignore the “reveal” rule and invoke the line-of-sight rules which are now suddenly relevant again for no apparent reason

And Daedalus, yes exactly the “reveal” rule would mean that if you adjacent to a corner in a corridor you could peer round the corner and that new corridor would be revealed.

[Daedalus]

Thanks for the reply. While playing either way for looking into/down corridors for placing contents works, I like the consistency you present. The rules would have been better for it.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

In light of the recent Hasbro confirmation Hero Quest 2021 Remake: Errata Compilation that the infamous line of sight "clarification" diagram was in fact incorrect all along (which we suspected!) I thought I would take this opportunity to (re)state my interpretation of the rules around visibility.

What can be seen?
Deciding what can be seen by a hero is particularly important in deciding what should be placed onto the board. Characters in passageways or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two characters. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door, then the character is not visible.

Spells can be cast at characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Characters in the same room are always visible. Characters in passageways or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two characters. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another character, then the character is not visible.

As the heroes move, they will discover more of the board. The Evil Wizard player will place onto the board anything that the heroes can see. Therefore, when a hero opens a closed door, they must pause to give the Evil Wizard player the chance to consult the Quest map and place onto the board anything that is shown for that room

As the heroes move around the board the Evil Wizard player must consult the Quest map to see what should be placed into each room or passageway.

As the heroes move around the gameboard they enter new rooms and passageways. If you are the first hero to enter a new room or passageway, you should give the Evil Wizard player enough time to consult the Quest Book map and place onto the board any visible monsters and furniture.

In my opinion there are several mechanisms in use here under the umbrella of "visibility" (sounds like a cool Artefact) and it isn't clear which apply in which situations, so to clean this up...

A = "Visibility" - What can be seen, what the characters are visually aware of, what is revealed and placed on the board
versus
B = "Clear Line of Sight" - What can be targeted by a missile attack (and those spells that use the same mechanism)

A = Characters can see the following:

• All squares in the room or passageway that they are currently in

• All squares in a room or passageway that they are adjacent to

• All squares that they have line of sight to.

Line of Sight = Characters have line of sight to a square if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the two squares. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door, then no line of sight exists.

B = Characters can target with missile weapons, that is a clear line of sight exists.

All squares that they have a clear line of sight to, that is where the line of sight is not blocked by another figure.

So in terms of text modifications/clarifications...I propose the following (mods in italics)

What can be seen?
Deciding what can be seen by a hero is particularly important in deciding what should be placed onto the board.

Characters can see:
• All squares in the room or passageway that they are currently in
• All squares in a room or passageway that they are adjacent to
• All squares that they have line of sight to.

A line of sight exists if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the two squares. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door, then no line of sight exists and the contents of the square is not visible.

Missile attacks can be made against characters provided that a clear line of sight exists between the attacker and the target. A clear line of sight exists if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the attacker's square and the centre of the target's square. If that line passes through a wall or a closed door, then no line of sight exists. If the line passes through a square occupied by another figure then the line of sight is blocked and the attack cannot be made.

Spells with a LOS label need a clear line of sight to be present between the caster and the target.

As the heroes move, they will discover more of the board. The Evil Wizard player will place onto the board anything that the heroes can see. Therefore, when a hero opens a closed door, they must pause to give the Evil Wizard player the chance to consult the Quest map and place onto the board anything that is shown for that room or passageway

As the heroes move around the board the Evil Wizard player must consult the Quest map to see what should be placed into each room or passageway.

As the heroes move around the gameboard they enter new rooms and passageways. If you are the first hero to enter a new room or passageway, you should give the Evil Wizard player enough time to consult the Quest Book map and place onto the board any visible monsters and furniture.

Note: In my rulebook the rules around using missile attacks appears in the rulebook earlier than the rules around casting spells so the description of this mechanism is explained at that first point rather than under spell casting which appears first in the original rulebook, depending on your edition/version that may not be the case, but either way the same modifications apply at the earliest point that the concept of a clear line of sight is introduced.

[HispaZargon]

So in terms of text modifications/clarifications...I propose the following (mods in italics)

A line of sight exists if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the two squares. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door, then no line of sight exists and the contents of the square is not visible.[/i]

The problem I see with this sentence is I think it is inconsistent with the "looking down through a corridor" rule. If a Hero can lean his body to inspect and adjacent passageway, why he can not do the same if he "needs" having that monster inside his LoS to shoot it with a missile weapon or missile spell? That's the reason why I like the idea of checking if tracing the straight line from any point of the Hero's square to the center of the target square is unobstructed, instead of linking both centers.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The problem with the "tracing the straight line from any point of the Hero's square to the centre of the target square" concept is that if we assume that a character can lean to bring an enemy into his line of sight, who wasn't already, for the purposes of making a missile attack (which is effectively what the "the leaning to any point within his square" piece that you are suggesting emulates) then we must equally assume that said enemy can then lean in such a way that takes him out of the line of sight, so he doesn't get hit by the missile attack effectively cancelling this out.

To avoid having to go down to this level of complexity it is simpler just to assume a fixed point, the centre of the square, that anchors the line of sight.

It isn't so much that I am choosing to ignore aspects of the rules or the diagram and homebrew instead (at least not on this occasion), it is more the case that if you take all the relevant rules and the diagram and try to apply them then they contradict each other and therefore cannot be followed or applied as they are, so I have no choice but to try and discover the spirit or intention behind the rules and then rewrite the letter of the law (and diagram) to better fit the spirit or intention!