Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

[Zenithfleet]

I think we're agreeing more than we're disagreeing

Just to clarify, I'm not out to accuse you or anyone else of getting rules wrong or insisting you use a certain edition. All these posts I've been making lately are just me going 'Huh, THAT'S different, I never noticed that before'. I have a hodgepodge of EU and NA rules in my head after all those years I spent relying on an NA rulebook printout to replace my missing EU book. It's been a long time since I really sat down and scrutinised what the books actually say, instead of what I assumed they said when I glanced over them at age 11. (I only just rediscovered that you can search for treasure in passages in the EU rules!) I hope I'm not coming across as lecturing you or anyone else. Really I'm just trying to sort it all out myself and typing it out in public in the hope that some future lurker will find it helpful.

Anyway...

In the EU rules, models in the two-space-wide passages also block visibility to other models for purposes of spellcasting and shooting. The 'everyone is visible' thing only applies to models in the same room.

It's not that 'magic avoids obstacles and seeks the target' in the EU rules. Most spells do need line of sight. Most shooting and throwing needs line of sight. Except that everything in a room is always in LOS to everyone, no matter what kind of confused melee is going on or what kind of furniture is piled up in the middle. That's the special case. In all other situations LOS is required.

With shooting/throwing there's the additional rule that the target can't be adjacent.

I think we're really saying the same thing. We just have different ideas on what the norm is and what the special rules exception is.

There are a couple of EU spells that don't require line of sight. Their cards note that the target model can be 'anywhere on the board'. However, there are only one or two spells that can do it. Genie and Fire of Wrath are the ones that spring to mind. Fire of Wrath is weaker than Ball of Flame, damage-wise, to balance it because it doesn't require LOS and can hit a monster on the far side of the board if necessary.

I just had a look at the NA spells, and I'm bemused that Fire of Wrath requires LOS. Doesn't that just make it a weaker version of Ball of Flame? Also, what's up with the red dice instead of normal combat dice?

And who decided Genie required LOS? The whole point of a Genie is that he breaks the rules and does something awesomely magical, like explodifying the bad guy two rooms away.

It's fascinating the various little tweaks the NA rules writers made. Some make sense to me and some don't. Of course, some of the EU rules don't make a lot of sense to begin with...

If there's an enemy in the middle of the room down a pit, would you be able to hit them from anywhere in the room with a spell or crossbow?

Pit traps aren't treated as separate rooms and there are no special visibility rules for them as far as I recall. So yes, you can take crossbow potshots at people down a Pit of Darkness from across the room. How that works in real life, I have no idea. Ricochets off the ceiling?

(I always wanted Pits of Darkness to drop you down to the next dungeon level so you'd have to climb back up the stairway, Zelda style...)

[Kurgan]

Yeah, we agree on many things, like what a n00b I am when it comes to the EU rules!

They insist on Red Dice, because they had Future Sight and knew we would invent German colored dice.

Pit Traps are only separate rooms when searching for Treasure (in NA version at least). If I played a full EU game I would definitely need to keep the rulebook handy.

Yes, Fire of Wrath is just a weaker version of Ball of Flame, for NA game.

[j_dean80]

Here is a tricky one to figure out. If you search for traps/secret doors it says you walk around and check everything so no monsters can be present. What about a corridor that has a monster or two hiding behind a corner? Should they be placed on the board and everything in connecting corridors also placed?

...and to twist it even more. If the monsters are placed on the board, does that end your search cause now monsters are present?

[Oftkilted]

Here is a tricky one to figure out. If you search for traps/secret doors it says you walk around and check everything so no monsters can be present. What about a corridor that has a monster or two hiding behind a corner? Should they be placed on the board and everything in connecting corridors also placed?

The “walking around” isn’t literal, as they explicitly call out that you don’t move the miniature. So it would be based on what is “in the same room at the time”?

The monsters “hidden around a corner” don’t exist until they are made visible by getting into “eyesight range” in a corridor or passage.

[Kurgan]

Creating the "Hero Wall" to block the monsters while the Dwarf performs a search just seems like good tactics to me! And before you say there aren't enough Heroes, some rooms are small AND you can also use Mercs to help you form the "wall."

[The Admiral]

Here is a tricky one to figure out. If you search for traps/secret doors it says you walk around and check everything so no monsters can be present. What about a corridor that has a monster or two hiding behind a corner? Should they be placed on the board and everything in connecting corridors also placed?

...and to twist it even more. If the monsters are placed on the board, does that end your search cause now monsters are present?

Yeah, there are all sorts of anomalies with searching a whole corridor, as to what is there that you would find and see if you actually wandered up and down the whole corridor looking for secret doors.

I like more realism in my HQ, but there are limits as to how far I can be bothered to go. I can remember we once used to purchase individual bolts and arrows and record their use. Far more realistic than limitless ammo, but it soon became tedious. We even had a rule for ammo recovery that might find them broken or re-usable. There is a whole world of detail you can go into, it is really how far down that burrow your willing to explore.

[The Admiral]

Here is a tricky one to figure out. If you search for traps/secret doors it says you walk around and check everything so no monsters can be present. What about a corridor that has a monster or two hiding behind a corner? Should they be placed on the board and everything in connecting corridors also placed?

The “walking around” isn’t literal, as they explicitly call out that you don’t move the miniature. So it would be based on what is “in the same room at the time”?

The monsters “hidden around a corner” don’t exist until they are made visible by getting into “eyesight range” in a corridor or passage.

So how do you explain finding things on the other side of a room or down the other end of a corridor if you never moved from your spot. I do think it is an abstraction and is simulating walking around searching as your action. Its realism limited, but it sort of works.

[The Admiral]

Creating the "Hero Wall" to block the monsters while the Dwarf performs a search just seems like good tactics to me! And before you say there aren't enough Heroes, some rooms are small AND you can also use Mercs to help you form the "wall."

Not in my HQ world. Anyway, no self respecting Hero would waste time searching while his companions in the same room are engaged in mortal combat....although maybe a would!

[Oftkilted]

Here is a tricky one to figure out. If you search for traps/secret doors it says you walk around and check everything so no monsters can be present. What about a corridor that has a monster or two hiding behind a corner? Should they be placed on the board and everything in connecting corridors also placed?

The “walking around” isn’t literal, as they explicitly call out that you don’t move the miniature. So it would be based on what is “in the same room at the time”?

The monsters “hidden around a corner” don’t exist until they are made visible by getting into “eyesight range” in a corridor or passage.

So how do you explain finding things on the other side of a room or down the other end of a corridor if you never moved from your spot. I do think it is an abstraction and is simulating walking around searching as your action. Its realism limited, but it sort of works.

Because to physical move requires movement, that means rolling dice and accepting the movement roll .... This is an abstraction that resolves ‘finding things’ without requiring movement rolls and additional turns to do so.

[j_dean80]

I’d find it tough to spot a trip wire or loose stone from down the corridor. Eagle eyes apparently. I get it’s what the rule states, but from a more realistic standpoint...

If you wanted to make it realistic you’d need to roll to jump a trap to find one on the other side of it.