Line of Sight and Furniture discussion

[wallydubbs]

Which also brings me to a question— has anybody as a player or Zargon/Morcar ever actually used Genie to open a door rather than drop a bomb of death on a BBG?

I've only used the Genie spell of opening a door in Frozen Horror to bypass the Heart of Ice 2. Instead of going through hell to find the Crystal Key, I just used the Genie to go straight to the Frozen Horror. By this point with 4 heroes (Frozen Horror is best played with 5) they were all out of Healing Potions and couldn't possibly survive 2 quests in 1, so they went for broke (Barbarian, Druid, Dwarf & Elf) the Elf cast Genie on the door for a successful final battle.

[CavemanLogic]

I haven't been on here in a while, so my reply may be a little bit lengthy... So here is a tl;dr for you. This is the current wording of my Line of Sight rules for HeroQuest. I find it pretty clear on what does and doesn't block LoS (in my game at least, feel free to disagree):

“Line of Sight is used for spell casting and attacking with ranged weapons. If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between any part of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target. Squares containing Walls, closed doors, Blocked Square tiles, triggered Falling Block Trap tiles, and similar objects, are Completely Obstructed, and block LoS through them. Squares containing Heroes, Monsters, Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries, Tall Furniture (Bookcase, Cupboard, Fireplace, Weapon’s Rack, or similar), and similar objects, are Partially Obstructed, and also block LoS. Squares containing Short Furniture (Alchemist’s Bench, Rack, Sorcerer’s Table, Table, Throne, Tomb, Treasure Chest, or similar) do not block LoS. The center of the line may touch the corner of, but not pass through any part of, a completely or partially obstructed square. This allows for instances such as the attacker leaning to get the best shot, or the enemy hiding behind cover. The line may pass between two obstructed squares which meet only at their corners, as long as at least one of those squares is only Partially Obstructed, such as between a wall and a diagonally adjacent square containing an enemy. The line may not pass between two Completely Obstructed squares which meet only at their corners, such as the corner where a wall and a Blocked Square tile meet.”

...

Hi all,

I want to break down whether the elf can cast a spell targeting the barbarian.


There are three (!) points that needs to be addressed to figure this out:

1. Does furniture block LoS at all?
   
2. Does furniture only block LoS on the visible outline of the 3D print or of the whole tile it's standing on?
   
3. Do two different pieces of furniture on diagonally adjacent tiles block the diagonal space between them?

4. Does the particular height of a piece of furniture bear on its blocking line of sight?

I’ll answer these a bit further on. But first...

At my table(s) we have always played that the fireplace must be placed against a wall (quest design constraint) and that tall furniture (bookcases & cupboards) DO block LOS.

I agree. I also count the Fireplace and Weapon's Rack (as well as the Bookcase and Cupboard) as tall furniture, simply based on the height of the furniture minis themselves. The Weapon’s Rack has all manner of broken Shields, Helmets, Suits of Armor, Weapons, etc. blocking your view, which makes it difficult to target someone on the other side through all that mess. All other furniture (Alchemist’s Bench, Rack, Sorcerer’s Table, Table, Throne, Tomb, Treasure Chest, or similar) I consider as short furniture, and don't block LoS.

Whilst it is true that nowhere in the rulebook does it state that any furniture blocks line of sight, it is also true that in every official published quest* for the original HeroQuest, tall furniture (cupboards, bookcases etc) was always placed against walls, so the scenario in which it could have blocked LOS never arose.

There were some instances in base game quests where I determined LoS was blocked by tall furniture, even though the tall furniture was always situated up against a wall. Gathering Storm (base game) Quest 5: Melar's Maze had such a situation with the Cupboard in the lower right room of the quest map:


EDIT to include image links: (https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9394825/cavemanlogic)

You could have a situation with a Hero in the square just south of the Cupboard, and a Monster in the square just north of the Cupboard, and I would rule that they could not see each other.

I also don't agree that furniture didn't obstruct movement, again it wasn't explicitly stated that furniture does or doesn't obstruct movement, but the fact that the original furniture was all three dimensional models that physically occupied the appropriate squares... The whole point of furniture in the game from my point of view (aside from being used for atmosphere) is that it can be used to effectively change the shape of what are otherwise fixed shape rooms which increases the options and variety of the quests.

Agreed! In theory, the furniture minis should mostly fill their designated spaces on the board. This would make it clear that they all block movement through those squares, and the taller ones block LoS through their squares as well.

I have had issues with the *scale* of the furniture in the newer 2021 version of the game in the past. None of them completely fill their board spaces like they mostly did in the original 1989-1990 Editions. The base of the 1990 Bookshelf takes up nearly all of the three squares that it occupies. The problem is that with the reprint, they left the scale of the furniture about the same as the older furniture, while making the board itself quite a bit larger.

The 2021 Table now fills slightly more than *two* of the *six* spaces it is supposed to occupy on the board. I’ve had issues with players trying to scoot the table out of the way and move through its spaces on the board. This issue becomes even worse for HeroQuest gamers who have custom printed neoprene game mats, such as with Ian Schofield’s artwork, and especially when enlarged and printed with 1.25” or 1.5” squares. Then the furniture starts to look *really* tiny. I bought these acrylic "furniture space markers" from VictoryDesigns777 on Etsy to distinguish the “off limits” spaces on the board under the furniture. I got the 1" square tiles (similar to those shown below), but he also makes them in 1.25" and 1.5" sizes as well. These are his images, not mine:



(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9319825/cavemanlogic)
(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9319824/cavemanlogic)

With these I can show the proper and intended scale of the furniture, which helps players visualize their available movements across the board.

However there is yet another consideration here, if certain furniture types DO block LOS then how do they block it?
a) as a "figure" (character, hero, monster)
b) as a solid "block" (like a blocked square tile)?
c) based on the visible outline of the actual furniture piece?

I have always rejected (c) as being too complex for the simplistic, binary nature of HQ**, both in the sense of the complexity of working out whether part of the chest, the sword, 1/3 of the head, one and a half-legs, a single boot and some of a cloak does or doesn't constitute 50%+ of a figure (can't be bothered with that in-game) and partly because we already have two methods in the game already (a) and (b) so why introduce a third, don't be greedy just make better use of the two methods already provided!

**And even more so if you start trying to take into account the 3D shape of a 2D printed furniture tile provided in some later cost-cutting expansions

Agreed! I do like realism in my HeroQuest, but some things need to remain a bit abstracted. I don’t want to have to maneuver my head down to the level of my mini on the board to see if they can see through the legs, or between that arm and chest, or around that cloak, to determine if they can “see” the target beyond. I don’t want to have a player rotate a mini, or try to scoot them into a corner of their square, to see if their Hero’s LoS will make it past that mini, when I, as Zargon, would then just have to reposition and re-center the mini again. I don’t want to have to deal with that back and forth of fudging the board state to fit the rules. Because of this, I treat the *whole square* occupied by an obstruction as off limits. My LoS line can touch the corner of that square, but can’t enter that square at all.

LOS blocking furniture to me more closely resembles a blocked square tile (immobile, inanimate, solid, blocky) which uses method (b) than it does a moving, animated figure which use method (a) so I've always used the appropriate existing method (b).

Here’s where I slightly disagree. I differentiate between Partially Obstructed and Completely Obstructed squares on the board. LoS *is* blocked through the corner between two diagonally adjacent Completely Obstructed squares, but LoS is *not* blocked if at least one of those squares is only Partially Obstructed.

I treat furniture spaces as only Partially Obstructed, the same as spaces containing Hero or Monster minis (so your “Option A” above). They fill *most* of the square, but don’t completely obstruct the square, like Walls, Blocked Square tiles, and similar items do. Furniture blocks movement through the square, and tall furniture additionally blocks LoS through the square, but they have a definite form to them which is smaller than the whole square itself. Unlike a Blocked Square tile, there are still gaps around the edges which allow LoS past the corner of that square.

In the OP image above (with the Elf and Barbarian circled), you can clearly see a gap between the Table and the Throne. Even if you replace those with a (correctly scaled) Bookshelf and Cupboard, you would still have a small gap between them which should theoretically allow for any sort of targeting with LoS. See here:


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9394684/cavemanlogic)

Even though I purposely didn't center the Bookshelf and Cupboard, trying to butt them up against each other while still remaining in their own squares to close the gap as much as possible, I would still definitely rule that the gap is wide enough to target the Mummy with LoS.

...

So, with all that said, here’s the wording that I use for LoS in my HeroQuest house rules document:

“Line of Sight is used for spell casting and attacking with ranged weapons. If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between any part of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target. Squares containing Walls, closed doors, Blocked Square tiles, triggered Falling Block Trap tiles, and similar objects, are Completely Obstructed, and block LoS through them. Squares containing Heroes, Monsters, Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries, Tall Furniture (Bookcase, Cupboard, Fireplace, Weapon’s Rack, or similar), and similar objects, are Partially Obstructed, and also block LoS. Squares containing Short Furniture (Alchemist’s Bench, Rack, Sorcerer’s Table, Table, Throne, Tomb, Treasure Chest, or similar) do not block LoS. The center of the line may touch the corner of, but not pass through any part of, a completely or partially obstructed square. This allows for instances such as the attacker leaning to get the best shot, or the enemy hiding behind cover. The line may pass between two obstructed squares which meet only at their corners, as long as at least one of those squares is only Partially Obstructed, such as between a wall and a diagonally adjacent square containing an enemy. The line may not pass between two Completely Obstructed squares which meet only at their corners, such as the corner where a wall and a Blocked Square tile meet.”

Note that I use the same house rule as Kurgan, allowing LoS from *anywhere* in my square to the *center* of the target square. This LoS line...


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6762661/cavemanlogic)

...doesn't fly with me. As drawn, it fully passes *into* the Wizard's square, potentially causing all kinds of arguments at the table. ... And I see that they've modified the infamous image *yet again* for First Light (see Kurgan's reply on page 1 for that image). They again nudged the start of the arrow up from the center of the Elf's square, and ended it in the middle of the *left edge* of the Orc's square (instead of ending in the exact *center* of his square, like the rules tell us it should), all so that the line could *appear* to only touch the corner of the Wizards's square.

But, by using the "any point to center of square" house rule, thereby allowing the Elf to "lean" around the Wizard (originate the LoS from Elf's upper right corner), she *does* have a clear LoS to that center Orc. See the green line here:


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9394683/cavemanlogic)

I guess the rulebook image is using our house rule as well, since the Elf's line never seems to originate in the exact center of her square anyway!

...

But back to the OP's original questions:

"1. Does furniture block LoS at all?"

Yes. In my game, tall furniture (Bookshelf, Cupboard, Fireplace, Weapon's Rack, or similar) do block LoS. Short furniture (Alchemist’s Bench, Rack, Sorcerer’s Table, Table, Throne, Tomb, Treasure Chest, or similar) do not.

"2. Does furniture only block LoS on the visible outline of the 3D print or of the whole tile it's standing on?"

Only the visible outline, as I treat furniture squares as Partially Obstructed. And short furniture, such as the Table and the Throne shown in the image, do not block LoS at all, so the Elf would have no issues casting a spell on the Barbarian.

"3. Do two different pieces of furniture on diagonally adjacent tiles block the diagonal space between them?"

No. Again, because I treat furniture as only partially obstructing their respective squares. And there *is* LoS between two diagonally adjacent obstructed squares as long as at least one of them is only Partially Obstructed.

And Daedalus' 4th point: "4. Does the particular height of a piece of furniture bear on its blocking line of sight?"

Yes. Tall furniture would block LoS across itself (the Elf, standing on one side of the Cupboard, could not cast a spell on the Barbarian, standing directly on the other side), but does *not* block LoS along its corner (between two diagonally adjacent pieces of furniture, for instance).

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

I get a "content not viewable in your region" error for your images, which is probably an issue on my side, but just to let you know that I can't see them so bear that in mind with my response!

If you could help me understand your line-of-sight rules, it would be appreciated.

Line of Sight is used for spell casting and attacking with ranged weapons.

I always thought that line-of-sight was primarily about seeing, although I appreciate in some games, some types of weapon shoot along the line-of-sight (as opposed to indirect fire like artillery) so in that instance line-of-sight rules for seeing and shooting may well be the same so no need to discriminate.

If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between any part of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target.

I understand this rule as written, what I don't understand are the reasons why you have chosen to adopt this rule over the simpler (to my mind) "If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target"?

Also your rule here doesn't seem to work both ways in certain scenarios, which could result in character A being able to target character B, but character B cannot target character A in the same positions, which seems odd to me.

[CavemanLogic]

I get a "content not viewable in your region" error for your images, which is probably an issue on my side, but just to let you know that I can't see them so bear that in mind with my response!

I use imgur.com to host images for my Ye Olde Inn posts. When I created a Ye Olde Inn account about four years ago (after being a lurker here for *many* years before that), imgur was what was suggested to me to insert images into my posts here. Is there another site that works better? I am US-based and the images show up fine for me.

I know that I tend to have issues viewing images here on Ye Olde Inn when the system logs me out. Once I log back in, the images show up just fine for me.

I wrote a reply in the 13 year old, 12 page "Line of Sight" thread here on Ye Olde Inn, that covers much of the same info here. See if you can view my images in that thread. My replies begin on page 7 of that thread, here:

https://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5839&start=60#p119183

If you still can't view my images, you can try to view my earlier reply on Boardgamegeek from four years ago that covers pretty much the same thing as I said there:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2834485/article/39709314#39709314

If you could help me understand your line-of-sight rules, it would be appreciated.

Line of Sight is used for spell casting and attacking with ranged weapons.

I always thought that line-of-sight was primarily about seeing, although I appreciate in some games, some types of weapon shoot along the line-of-sight (as opposed to indirect fire like artillery) so in that instance line-of-sight rules for seeing and shooting may well be the same so no need to discriminate.

If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between any part of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target.

The HeroQuest rules hint at two different forms of "seeing" but never really explicitly define them. To me, "Line of Sight" is a more narrow focused *line* used for targeting. "Field of Vision" is a broader *field*, includes things in your peripheral vision, and is used for revealing rooms and corridors. LoS = narrow line, FoV = wider peripheral vision.

I somewhat jokingly say that the infamous rulebook images mostly seem to support my "anywhere from the attacker's square to center of target square" interpretation. Most versions of the infamous rulebook image *attempt* to show the Elf's LoS line just touching the upper left corner of the Wizards's square before continuing on to the middle Orc's square on the right. In order to accomplish this though, the graphic artists who worked on the various HQ rulebooks had to fudge the lines. They nearly all start the Elf's LoS from about 2/3 of the way up the Elf's square (*not* the center of the Elf's square like the rule said it should). The only rulebook that specifically did *not* attempt to just touch the corner of the Wizard's square with the line was the 2021 reprint, which actually showed it crossing into the Wizard's square. I believe the First Light rulebook redid the graphic once again, originating the Elf's line north of the center of his square, and just hitting the corner of the Wizard's square. Also, most of the versions of that infamous rulebook image also show the Elf's LoS ending at the center of the *left edge* of the Orc's square. If they would have continued the arrow actually *into* the Orc's square, it would be clear that the tip of the arrow would hit somewhere to the north of the true center of his square.

So, yes, my interpretation of the rule *is* a houserule. For me it is just easier to avoid *all* occupied squares when drawing LoS. But by choosing where in your square you want to begin your LoS, you are able to "peek" around objects (like the Elf peeking around the Wizard to get full LoS to that infamous middle Orc).

Also your rule here doesn't seem to work both ways in certain scenarios, which could result in character A being able to target character B, but character B cannot target character A in the same positions, which seems odd to me.

My houserule *also* has the bonus of allowing Heroes and Monsters to "peek" around a corner of a wall to target their enemies. If you view my BoardGameGeek post at the link above, you will see my recreation of the infamous rulebook diagram. In that image, you will see that the Goblin can peek around the wall and target all three of the Heroes. But he can use the corner of the wall as cover so that only the Wizard has LoS back at him. The wall provides exactly 50% cover from the Wizard to the Goblin (so the Wizard can target the Goblin), but more than 50% cover from the Barbarian and the Elf to the Goblin (so the Goblin is safe from both of them).

Picture any gunfight in any action movie and you will see the participants ducking for cover behind cars, or walls, or whatever. I remember specifically watching an episode of Walking Dead four years ago when I wrote about that. There was a gunfight under a bridge on a freeway with a bunch of abandoned cars that Morgan (I think) was using for cover. He would peer around the bumper or over the hood of the car to aim and fire, then duck back down for cover. I am a big proponent of thematic realism in my house rules. If I see a minor change that makes a lot of thematic sense without changing the mechanics of the game too much (like the *any* part of your square to center of target square houserule), it just makes sense for me to use that.

So, yes, sometimes character A is able to target character B, but character B cannot target character A in the same positions. That is a "feature" not a "bug."

I understand this rule as written, what I don't understand are the reasons why you have chosen to adopt this rule over the simpler (to my mind) "If you can draw an unobstructed straight line between the centre of the attacker’s square to the center of the enemy square, the attacker has Line of Sight (LoS) to that target"?

See this image. I'll post again my image hosted on imgur, and a link to the same image in my BGG gallery. If you can't see the first, try clicking the link to view the second. It shows the Elf "leaning" to the upper right corner of his square so that his LoS misses the Wizard's square, and can successfully target the center of the Orc's square.


https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9394683/cavemanlogic

(I'll try to edit my previous post above to include BGG links to all my images below each of my imgur imbedded images as well, so if you do still get the "content not viewable in your region" error, you should be able to click the link to view the intended image).

Using my houserule, it allows me to completely avoid occupied squares, while still complying with the rulebook diagram's rule of showing the infamous Orc as being within the Elf's LoS. I don't like the various HQ rulebook's tendency to fudge lines to make something fit. Either you have LoS or you don't.

I know you like to use the center of square to center of square, and the LoS line just has to miss the *center* of an occupied square, houserule. That may be simpler, but it doesn't take into account the size of the object in the square that the LoS line is passing through. A fellow Hero? That's probably fine as you can yell for them to "duck" as you fire a Crossbow bolt through their square. A Goblin? That's probably fine too. They don't take up much space (probably much less than 50% of their square). What about a Gargoyle or a Dragon? I would argue that they take up nearly *all* of the space in their square (and possibly some of the neighboring squares as well), and that LoS line, in my mind, definitely should *not* be allowed to pass through any part of their square.

That's why I prefer a rule which allows you to completely *avoid* occupied squares. Just makes life simpler that way.

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

I have the same issue with the images on the other thread, so I'm pretty sure it is something up with my settings, but the images on BGG I can see fine, so that at least is useful.

Your "line-of-sight from any part of the square to the centre of the target square rule" house rule I now understand, thank you, but I don't like the idea of it not being mutual (not sure if that is the right word) but for me if figure A can target figure B then it must be true that figure B can target figure A but that is just my preference. I get your example of an action movie gunfight, but still at the precise moment when figure A is in cover but peering around the bumper or over the hood of the car to aim and fire at figure B then he would be visible to figure B (as HQ ignores facing as far as I'm aware).

For me I'll stick with "an intervening figure only blocks line-of-sight for missile attacks if the line crosses the centre of the square occupied by the figure" which I think is supported by the official infamous line-of-sight (in the context of missile attacks) diagram, in the sense that if you apply that rule then the Elf does have a clear Line-of-Sight to the middle Orc on the right because the straight line passes through a portion of the square occupied by the Wizard but does NOT pass through the centre of that square unlike the line between the Elf and the bottom Orc on the right where the line-of-sight passes through the centre of the square occupied by the Wizard so would be blocked (for the purposes of missile attacks).

And this works however badly the lines on the diagram are actually drawn!

You are right that approach doesn't take into account the size of the object in the square that the LoS line is passing through, but I think that the official rules at that stage didn't take this into account, maybe for the sake of keeping it simple, and that this was only reconsidered when bigger figures came into the game with Ogres in Against the Ogre Horde at which point some special rules were needed, and I think at that point I would consider Ogres to be a special case, a "large monster" in that they fully occupy the square so for the purposes of line-of-sight for missile fire I would treat the square they occupy as if it was occupied by a Blocked Square tile (and that could be applied retrospectively to other figures like the Gargoyle).

The HeroQuest rules hint at two different forms of "seeing" but never really explicitly define them. To me, "Line of Sight" is a more narrow focused *line* used for targeting. "Field of Vision" is a broader *field*, includes things in your peripheral vision, and is used for revealing rooms and corridors. LoS = narrow line, FoV = wider peripheral vision.

This is where it seems to get really complicated between versions and as I'm new to all but the UK 2nd edition it still confuses me! I think the UK 2nd edition DOES explicitly define the two different forms of seeing, it gives a line-of-sight definition early in the rulebook under the "what can be seen?" heading which from the placement is presumably for "seeing" and a second, different, line-of-sight rule under the "casting a spell" heading which from the placement is presumably for "missile attacks", so if like me you started HQ life using the UK 2nd edition then it seems fairly simple and clear, however now I'm looking into the 1st edition and North American editions these don't seem to have these two distinct rules so it is confusing and I think if I had started with either of those editions then I too would be try to fathom the only hinted at rules around line-of-sight in the context of seeing rather than missile attacks.

I've also recently started looking into the new Avalon Hill edition and whilst I'm not fully familiar with that yet either I did notice that it appears to have at least partially adopted the concepts from the UK 2nd edition as it gives a line-of-sight rule for seeing and a different line-of-sight rule for missile attacks, but I need to do more research.

All that said, I get why you have introduced your house rule as you find it simpler that way and I find my way simpler so I think we are all good!

[CavemanLogic]

...You are right that approach doesn't take into account the size of the object in the square that the LoS line is passing through, but I think that the official rules at that stage didn't take this into account, maybe for the sake of keeping it simple, and that this was only reconsidered when bigger figures came into the game with Ogres in Against the Ogre Horde at which point some special rules were needed, and I think at that point I would consider Ogres to be a special case, a "large monster" in that they fully occupy the square so for the purposes of line-of-sight for missile fire I would treat the square they occupy as if it was occupied by a Blocked Square tile (and that could be applied retrospectively to other figures like the Gargoyle).

I like this change.

All that said, I get why you have introduced your house rule as you find it simpler that way and I find my way simpler so I think we are all good!

Then I think we are in agreement, even though we have two different ways of accomplishing basically the same thing.

As an aside, I've seen people (myself included, obviously) interpret the LoS rule where your line can't enter an occupied square at all (the occupied square blocks LoS). I've also seen the interpretation where your line *can* enter an occupied square, but can not touch the mini (the mini itself blocks LoS). Sometimes this last one is broken down further into either just the mini's *base* counts as blocking LoS, or alternately *any* part of the mini counts as blocking. But I think this is the first time I've seen anyone just use the direct center of the occupied square as blocking LoS.

I definitely don't like the second option (of trying to calculate LoS based on the mini). As I've said before, *waaaaay* too much work and rules overhead. But your way is much simpler, and I *definitely* appreciate simpler. It proxies the idea of "peeking" around an obstacle without actually doing it. After differentiating between large and small Monsters, I see your rule as having potential.

I just prefer my method of avoiding an occupied square entirely, as I see that as the simplest solution overall. both methods provide a super simple way to actually draw LoS, so it just boils down to preference.

The HeroQuest rules do somewhat indirectly support the idea of "peeking." When you open a door to a room, it is assumed you "peek" your head inside to see around the door frame, as the rules explicitly state that you reveal the *entire* contents of the room. If you did *not* peek inside, your vision would only pick up a cone, 45 degrees to the left and 45 degrees to the right, originating from your square and pointing through the door. Because of this, I actually treat revealing corridors the same way. When you open a door from inside a room that leads to a corridor, I assume the Hero would *also* peek outside to reveal the whole corridor (even though the written rules say that you don't reveal the corridor until you step out *into* that corridor). I don't like that double standard, so I treat them both the same: you can peek around corners! I don't use the app, but I think they updated it to allow peaking for revealing corridors, both from inside a room, and from around the corner at the end of one corridor into another corridor.

This "peeking" mechanism feels very natural, and so that played into the creation of my house rule allowing you to use any part of your square to *peek* around obstructions to draw your LoS. That's the background on why I prefer my method.

Your "line-of-sight from any part of the square to the centre of the target square rule" house rule I now understand, thank you, but I don't like the idea of it not being mutual (not sure if that is the right word) but for me if figure A can target figure B then it must be true that figure B can target figure A but that is just my preference. I get your example of an action movie gunfight, but still at the precise moment when figure A is in cover but peering around the bumper or over the hood of the car to aim and fire at figure B then he would be visible to figure B (as HQ ignores facing as far as I'm aware).

Correct, HeroQuest does ignore facing. But it does have turns. On the Monster's turn, this Goblin...


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6668273/cavemanlogic)

...would peek around the corner of the wall (by choosing the bottom left corner of his square to begin his LoS), and could target any of the three Heroes with a Throwing Knife (one of the Special Abilities that I sometimes give to my Monsters). Then he would flatten himself against the wall so that they couldn't target him. On the Hero's turn... well, the Wizard, with his 45 degree angle to the Goblin could still target him with a spell, since the Goblin would only have 50% cover from the wall. The other two Heroes could *not* target the Goblin because the wall provides more than 50% cover (and any line they draw from any part of their square could not hit the center of the Goblin's square).

And if the Goblin were peeking out from around the corner of the wall, and saw the Elf raise a Crossbow towards him, you *know* that the Goblin is going to duck back for cover. The Goblin may be revealed on the board (because the Wizard can "see" him), but the Elf can't get a clear shot at the Goblin because of the wall. But the Goblin, from peeking around the corner of his square, can certainly target the Elf.

That just makes the most sense to me. And it allows for additional strategy in a somewhat strategy-light kids game.

Cheers!

[CavemanLogic]

...For me I'll stick with "an intervening figure only blocks line-of-sight for missile attacks if the line crosses the centre of the square occupied by the figure" which I think is supported by the official infamous line-of-sight (in the context of missile attacks) diagram...

Question: how would you draw LoS in this situation:


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9401105/cavemanlogic)
This image from HispaZargon's reply in the previously mentioned 12 page Line of Sight thread, here:

https://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5839&start=80#p119368

If your Hero was in the Red X square, would you allow them to target the Orc at the rear left of all the Monsters (the Orc directly in front of the door)? Your Hero's LoS would begin in the center of the X square, not pass through the exact center of *any* of the other Monster squares until it ended in the exact center of that one Orc's square.

Would you allow that, or no?

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

The HeroQuest rules do somewhat indirectly support the idea of "peeking." When you open a door to a room, it is assumed you "peek" your head inside to see around the door frame, as the rules explicitly state that you reveal the *entire* contents of the room. If you did *not* peek inside, your vision would only pick up a cone, 45 degrees to the left and 45 degrees to the right, originating from your square and pointing through the door. Because of this, I actually treat revealing corridors the same way. When you open a door from inside a room that leads to a corridor, I assume the Hero would *also* peek outside to reveal the whole corridor (even though the written rules say that you don't reveal the corridor until you step out *into* that corridor). I don't like that double standard, so I treat them both the same: you can peek around corners! I don't use the app, but I think they updated it to allow peaking for revealing corridors, both from inside a room, and from around the corner at the end of one corridor into another corridor.

Again different rulesets differ, the UK edition(s) hints that when a hero is next to a closed door and the hero player declares that they are opening the door, the evil wizard player replaces the closed door with an open door, moves the figure into the square beyond the door, and then places all the stuff on the board that is in the room or passageway, because the hero is now in that room or passageway so would have line-of-sight. For the NA edition, I don't really understand how it is supposed to work at all!

Also I think in all the various edition of the game it is explicitly stated that you can move and then take an action or take an action and then move, but you cannot move take an action and then complete your movement. I always thought that rule represented that while play was divided into turns to keep it simple, in reality all the "turns" happen at once, more or less simultaneously, so not allowing actions mid-movement avoids situations where a character could move, then attack/missile attack/cast spell at a now suitably placed opponent and then move again so that they end their turn in a position where the target cannot respond as that couldn't happen in a real-time situation.

And in your final picture (which I can see), unfortunately for me, yes my interpretation of the rules would allow you to shoot a crossbow at any of the monsters on the left hand side of the passage including the one by the door, which is far from ideal!

[CavemanLogic]

Again different rulesets differ, the UK edition(s) hints that when a hero is next to a closed door and the hero player declares that they are opening the door, the evil wizard player replaces the closed door with an open door, moves the figure into the square beyond the door, and then places all the stuff on the board that is in the room or passageway, because the hero is now in that room or passageway so would have line-of-sight.

I don't believe that part that I've bolded is correct.

UK 1989 1st Edition:
"Opening Doors
Characters and monsters can only enter and leave rooms through open doors. Monsters cannot open doors.

You can open a door by moving onto the square in front of it. You do not have to open a door if you do not want to. Opening a door does not count as a move. Having opened a door, you can keep moving, if you have any spaces left to move.

As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place any pieces shown for that room or passage on the map in the Quest book (apart from traps and secret doors). Once opened, a door remains open for the rest of the game. The evil wizard player should remove the closed door piece and replace it with an open door.

Note that, because you may not move through the same square twice in one move, if you move through a door, you may not pass through it again until your next turn."

UK 1990 2nd Edition:
Opening doors
Characters and monsters can only enter and leave rooms through open doors. Monsters cannot open doors.

Character players may open a door by moving onto the square in front of it. Character players do not have to open a door if they do not wish to. Opening a door does not count as a move. Having opened a door, a character player may keep moving, if he has any spaces left to move.

As soon as a door is opened, the evil wizard player must place onto the board any pieces shown for that room, or passageway, on the map in the Quest Book. Once opened, a door remains opened for the remainder of the game. The evil wizard player should remove the closed door piece and replace it with an open door piece."

.....

Note that neither ruleset requires the Hero to enter the room before the Evil Wizard populates the room. The room is revealed "as soon as a door is opened" (so, *before* the Hero steps through the door). The main change between 1st and 2nd Edition European versions is that you *are* allowed to retrace your steps in 2nd Edition, where that was strictly forbidden in 1st Edition.

For the NA edition, I don't really understand how it is supposed to work at all!

For the NA Edition, *and* the EU Edition, the Hero stands outside the door, opens it, and is assumed to "peek" inside so that the whole room is revealed. They remain in their same square outside the room, but lean around the doorframe so that they can see everything within.

Also I think in all the various edition of the game it is explicitly stated that you can move and then take an action or take an action and then move, but you cannot move take an action and then complete your movement. I always thought that rule represented that while play was divided into turns to keep it simple, in reality all the "turns" happen at once, more or less simultaneously, so not allowing actions mid-movement avoids situations where a character could move, then attack/missile attack/cast spell at a now suitably placed opponent and then move again so that they end their turn in a position where the target cannot respond as that couldn't happen in a real-time situation.

That is correct. You can Move then take an Action, or you can take an Action then Move.

Maybe you are missing the main point of my houserule. Let's go back to one of my last images, where the Goblin is peeking around the corner to target all three Heroes...


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6668273/cavemanlogic)

In that scenario, the Goblin does not leave his space (he is not moving, then attacking, then moving back behind the wall). He targets the Heroes by peeking around the corner of the wall (while remaining within his own square) and tossing a Dagger at the Hero of his choice. Mechanics-wise, he is choosing to begin his LoS from the lower left corner of his square. From there, his LoS can reach any of the three Heroes. He begins and ends his attack from behind the cover of the wall. He just reaches around the wall *very briefly* to toss a Dagger. If the Barbarian or Elf were to try to fire a Crossbow bolt at him, it would miss him and hit the wall, as he ducks back behind the cover provided by the square he still occupies. The Wizard, again, *can* cast a spell on the Goblin, since the Wizard *does* have normal LoS to the Goblin, along the 45 degree angle.

Much like the Hero is assumed to "peek" into a room after opening a door to fully reveal the room, my LoS rules on Combat are similar. When revealing a room, you "peek" around the doorframe, while still remaining within your same square outside the room, to reveal the contents of the whole room. When targeting down a corridor, you "peek" around your corner, while still remaining within your same square, to target the enemy. Here is an image I googled to help you visualize what I'm talking about:


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9407261/cavemanlogic)

The person remains *outside* the room, while they "peek" around the door to see what's *inside* the room. The closed door mini would be replaced with an open door mini. The complete contents of the room would now be revealed, including the things to the left and right of the door. The Hero could target many of the Monsters within the room, through the doorway, as long as they had direct LoS to the Monsters. Likewise, many of the Monsters could target the Hero, as long as they had direct LoS to the Hero.


(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9407276/cavemanlogic)

In this image, the person is peeking around the corner. They do not leave their square to the right of the corridor, but they can still see down the corridor. The corridor would now be revealed on the map. Using my houserule, they could target a Monster down that corridor by tossing a dagger or casting a spell, while still remaining within their square to the right of the corridor, and having the corner of the wall as cover. In the brief amount of time they would need to target a wide open Monster down the corridor, the Monster wouldn't have time to react fast enough to target the mostly obscured Hero with any sort of thrown weapon or spell, or with any accuracy. Their thrown weapon would hit the wall. So, with my houserule, the Hero could target a Monster down the corridor, while the Monster would not be able to target the Hero.

Hopefully that makes things clearer...

And in your final picture (which I can see), unfortunately for me, yes my interpretation of the rules would allow you to shoot a crossbow at any of the monsters on the left hand side of the passage including the one by the door, which is far from ideal!

You can see that image by HispaZargon because it is hosted here on Ye Olde Inn somehow, whereas my images are hosted on Imgur. And I agree, that being able to target *any* of the left column of Monsters (beyond the first Monster) is not ideal...

Cheers!

[Onan]

These images are great, CavemanLogic. They show how peeking through doors and around corners work, and why heroes can cast spells around corners and into the whole room through a door. But they don't fit well with the HQ cover image. The guys on your pictures don't look very heroic. Imagine a painting by Les Edwards of a barbarian peeking around a corner, and the heroquest logo on top. Would you buy the box?

We use the same rules by the way, but with reciprocity. If I can cast a spell on it, it can cast on me, too. So in a corridor you can cast a spell at the guy just around the corner. But I don't like this rule, and when playing the wizard I always try to get into the same room or passage with the spell target, like on the real box cover art.