Searching for traps and secret doors

[Agente Cooper]

I think the biggest mistake when trying to understand the rules of a game written 35 years ago is trying to figure out how to act when there are unwritten rules. And the key (in my opinion) is that if something isn't in the rules, it's because it's not really an option, either because it doesn't exist or it can't be done. In this case, there isn't a "closed secret door," only the "secret door," and, as the rules state, it remains open until the end of the game.
Sorry for my English.

[The Admiral]

I think the biggest mistake when trying to understand the rules of a game written 35 years ago is trying to figure out how to act when there are unwritten rules. And the key (in my opinion) is that if something isn't in the rules, it's because it's not really an option, either because it doesn't exist or it can't be done. In this case, there isn't a "closed secret door," only the "secret door," and, as the rules state, it remains open until the end of the game.
Sorry for my English.

Very good English. I am sure you are right. If I am making a mistake it will just be one more of my house rules

[BlackJax]

Another interesting thread (this forum is addictive)

We faced this same dilemma back in the day and considered the following ways through it.

1. Place the open secret door tile when found, but that causes another issue that you aren't supposed to place the contents of the room or passageway beyond, until a hero can see it and depending on the placement of the door and the heroes, you may not have line-of-sight to everything or indeed anything in the room or passageway revealed.

2. There is no closed secret door tile (as presumably you can't see a closed secret door which is why it is classed as "hidden") in the same way that there are no "found but not yet activated" tiles for pit traps and falling block traps (as presumably using the same logic you can't see them either), so you could handle it in the way as "found but not yet activated traps" of using an open secret door tile (or pit or blocked square tile respectively) but place it face down with a suitable vague warning "this piece of the wall looks suspicious". I think the NA version does something similar but without the placement of the tile. Then when you later move onto that square you can choose to (or choose not to) open the secret door, normal rules follow from this point.

After much between game discussions this issue combined with a load of others around searching for secret doors and traps, we eventually just dropped the search for secret doors and traps action and replaced it with...

When a hero moves onto a trapped square or opens a trapped chest or door, then the evil wizard player stops the player and activates the trap. If you are the Dwarf or a Hero equipped with the tool kit then you can attempt to disarm it, failure causes the trap to activate.

When a hero moves onto a square next to a secret door, then the evil wizard player stops the player and places the open secret door tile onto the board and moves the hero through the door before revealing the contents of the room or passageway beyond.

When a hero searches a room (for treasure) and the room contains hidden features (a trap or secret door) the evil wizard player moves your figure onto the trapped square or onto the square next to the secret door and the hidden feature is activated. If there are more than one hidden feature in the room then move onto the closest one. Activating a trap (unless you have the ability to disarm the trap and are successful) ends your turn, opening a secret door ends your search action but you may still move if you haven't done so already. Rooms where the search attempt has failed due to activating a trap or finding a secret door, can have the search action attempted again on a subsequent turn.

[Onan]

1. Place the open secret door tile when found, but that causes another issue that you aren't supposed to place the contents of the room or passageway beyond, until a hero can see it and depending on the placement of the door and the heroes, you may not have line-of-sight to everything or indeed anything in the room or passageway revealed.

I don't think this is a problem. Some quests reveal rooms that are not visible to any hero. I'd say it is the European style of an ambush, compared to the American Wandering Monster trap. Zargon opens a secret door on his turn and monsters come out.

These three secret doors may not be found by searching. You may place these onto the board at the beginning of any turn. When you place them onto the board you should set up the two rooms as usual, placing the monsters where shown.

A secret door is placed, the room is set up "as usual". No LoS requirements.

When a hero moves onto a trapped square or opens a trapped chest or door, then the evil wizard player stops the player and activates the trap. If you are the Dwarf or a Hero equipped with the tool kit then you can attempt to disarm it, failure causes the trap to activate.

So you give the dwarf and toolkit a passive trap defense? That was also my latest fix. Looking for traps is just unfair towards Zargon. He spent time placing traps in his quest, and the heroes get rid of them by saying "I'm looking for traps". Why not just skip this ritual and not place any traps at all, leave them to the treasure deck? I have stopped searching for traps a while ago. I simply accept them, they don't kill me, and every good dungeon needs some traps. I allow the dwarf to roll for defense when taking damage from a trap (also from treasure deck).

Also, if a hero takes no damage from a trap, he may continue his move. This is american style, EU rules say your turn ends anyway, but I like this more.

[Parzival]

I’ve had issues with the trap and secret door rules myself.

First, anybody searching for either automatically finding the things kinda kicks my internal “that doesn’t feel right” meter. But I come to the game with a background in D&D, where such searches are never a given success for anyone, short of magic.

Second, however, I don’t like the rule about not being able to detect a trap on the immediate door square in the other room. Fine if monsters are present (that you can’t search then is obvious), but seriously, the Wizard can’t poke the square through the doorway to see if there’s a pressure trigger? Or the Dwarf just doing his take on the local masonry? Doesn’t sit right with me, either.

Third, “gotcha” traps that can’t be detected, disarmed, or avoided. I never liked those in D&D (especially as a DM), and like them even less in HQ— and I say that as Zargon. It’s just a cheap hit. There’s no agency involved, and no clever strategy by Zargon. My rule of thumb is that there always needs to be a chance, even if it’s a poor one. At least two of the three have to be in play— Detect and Disarm OR Detect and Avoid Or Avoid and Disarm (the final in that order).

Things I’m considering:

Detect Traps: Roll a white die.
Barbarian: Success on a roll of Hero Shield only.
Elf: Success on a roll of Skull or Monster Shield.
Dwarf: Failure only on a Monster Shield.
Wizard: Success on Skull.
Trap Kit (excludes Dwarf): Roll two white dice; best result applies.

Success reveals all traps in the Hero’s current chamber, or just on the opposite side of an open door or secret door (if no monsters present in either chamber/corridor), or along any corridor he can see. He knows if he fails, and can continue to search on subsequent turns.

Disarm any trap (other than weather effect trick) as per rules.

Avoid: As type or Avoid on any Hero Shield for all others.

Detect Secret Doors: Roll a White die.
All except Elf: Success on Skull
Elf: Success on Skull or Hero Shield.
Only one attempt allowed per character per visible corridor or chamber.
Note that special secret doors may be undetectable until a triggering event occurs; these cannot be detected otherwise.
If a secret door is a “must find” to fulfill the adventure, Zargon must reveal it after the final attempt by the party. Otherwise, it remains hidden and may not be searched for without Magic.

Magic:
The Genie spell can be used to reveal all hidden things in any chamber or corridor which the Wizard knows about, regardless of its location on the board. The Genie will only reveal hidden things in that one area— the function does not work through even open doors. (So the Genie will reveal everything in one chamber, but not in any other adjacent/linked chamber or corridor, even if a door or passage between the two areas exists.) Note that “corridor” can include ALL continuous paths of corridor, so long as these have been revealed by a hero having at least peered down them at some point in the game.
Things revealed: Traps, Tricks (including environmental things like icy floors, rivers, heat, etc.), Secret Doors, Monsters (including hidden monsters), and the presence of treasure/artifacts/equipment, even inside furnishings. It will NOT reveal what these items are, merely that “something” is present in the room. This spell will always function, unless a Quest specifically forbids it (or reasonably should— Zargon should be fair on this).

The above I think would work, and bring a little flavor to the game and some choice as to actions.

The main risk is slowing things down, but that’s a party/player decision— Do you say “enough searching— d*** the traps! Full speed ahead!” Maybe if you’re the Barbarian; not so much, if you’re the Wizard.

[The Admiral]

Another interesting thread (this forum is addictive)

We faced this same dilemma back in the day and considered the following ways through it.

1. Place the open secret door tile when found, but that causes another issue that you aren't supposed to place the contents of the room or passageway beyond, until a hero can see it and depending on the placement of the door and the heroes, you may not have line-of-sight to everything or indeed anything in the room or passageway revealed.

Yes indeed. Which is why I just find it easier to treat them as doors you have to find by searching. An easy solution is to use the secret door tile to represent it in a closed state (odd visually but irrelevant for game play) and then when opened place a normal open door piece.

[BlackJax]

1. Place the open secret door tile when found, but that causes another issue that you aren't supposed to place the contents of the room or passageway beyond, until a hero can see it and depending on the placement of the door and the heroes, you may not have line-of-sight to everything or indeed anything in the room or passageway revealed.

I don't think this is a problem. Some quests reveal rooms that are not visible to any hero. I'd say it is the European style of an ambush, compared to the American Wandering Monster trap. Zargon opens a secret door on his turn and monsters come out.

It was a problem for us because whilst you are correct there are specific quest notes that handle things differently, which is fine, it didn't seem to work under the general rules. You only place on the board what you can see BUT if you search a long passageway and reveal a secret door at the other end, this opens into a room, the monsters are placed even though no hero can see them!

When a hero moves onto a trapped square or opens a trapped chest or door, then the evil wizard player stops the player and activates the trap. If you are the Dwarf or a Hero equipped with the tool kit then you can attempt to disarm it, failure causes the trap to activate.

So you give the dwarf and toolkit a passive trap defense? That was also my latest fix. Looking for traps is just unfair towards Zargon. He spent time placing traps in his quest, and the heroes get rid of them by saying "I'm looking for traps". Why not just skip this ritual and not place any traps at all, leave them to the treasure deck? I have stopped searching for traps a while ago. I simply accept them, they don't kill me, and every good dungeon needs some traps. I allow the dwarf to roll for defense when taking damage from a trap (also from treasure deck).

Also, if a hero takes no damage from a trap, he may continue his move. This is american style, EU rules say your turn ends anyway, but I like this more.

I don't know whether I'll call it a "passive trap defense" more reactive, just you step onto a trapped square (or open a trapped container or door) and if you have the ability to disarm (Dwarf or Tool Kit equipped hero) then you can attempt to disarm it, if you succeed it is disarmed, if not (or you don't have the ability to disarm) then the trap is activated.

This enables you as the quest creator to still choose to include traps, as losing that in my opinion makes the game less rich, it gives you a simple way of handling them (and disarming them for those that have that ability) but doesn't force the players to choose between the boring option of having to search for traps over and over again (and generally not find any) or the quicker more fun option of not searching for traps but then their hero potentially suffers so that is also not a great option (and it solves the traps behind the door issue)

Another interesting thread (this forum is addictive)

We faced this same dilemma back in the day and considered the following ways through it.

1. Place the open secret door tile when found, but that causes another issue that you aren't supposed to place the contents of the room or passageway beyond, until a hero can see it and depending on the placement of the door and the heroes, you may not have line-of-sight to everything or indeed anything in the room or passageway revealed.

Yes indeed. Which is why I just find it easier to treat them as doors you have to find by searching. An easy solution is to use the secret door tile to represent it in a closed state (odd visually but irrelevant for game play) and then when opened place a normal open door piece.

One evil wizard player who hosted 2-3 sessions that I took part in many years ago took that a step further and just used the normal closed door when the secret door was found (closed) and then used the normal open door piece when it was opened, so exactly as you suggest, treat it as a normal door except that it isn't placed on the board when the room or passageway is revealed, but is placed when you search and find it.

I think that is valid, but I prefer my step on it and it opens approach, as it makes it more fun, more of a surprise for the hero players, instead of searching and finding a secret door, then moving along the passageway, getting into position then opening the door, you are wandering through the dungeon, minding your own business, poking bits of wall as you explore, when suddenly a hidden door pops open next to you revealing a bunch of equally surprised looking Orcs...charge!

First, anybody searching for either automatically finding the things kinda kicks my internal “that doesn’t feel right” meter. But I come to the game with a background in D&D, where such searches are never a given success for anyone, short of magic.

Second, however, I don’t like the rule about not being able to detect a trap on the immediate door square in the other room. Fine if monsters are present (that you can’t search then is obvious), but seriously, the Wizard can’t poke the square through the doorway to see if there’s a pressure trigger? Or the Dwarf just doing his take on the local masonry? Doesn’t sit right with me, either.

Third, “gotcha” traps that can’t be detected, disarmed, or avoided. I never liked those in D&D (especially as a DM), and like them even less in HQ— and I say that as Zargon. It’s just a cheap hit. There’s no agency involved, and no clever strategy by Zargon. My rule of thumb is that there always needs to be a chance, even if it’s a poor one. At least two of the three have to be in play— Detect and Disarm OR Detect and Avoid Or Avoid and Disarm (the final in that order).

I can't remember all the issues we had with the official handling of secret doors and traps rules back in the day but there were many of them including the ones you mention and a whole host more...which is why we ditched the official rules in this area and house ruled instead.

One issue that I'll mention because I think it relates to an issue in both the official rules and your "Detect Traps" idea is that the search for traps and secret doors action (conditional or automatic) is that it forces the players to choose from several strategies none of which are great

(a) Thorough option - You search for traps and secret doors at every opportunity, this maximises your chances of successfully completing the quest (good) but makes the game longer and more boring (not good)

(b) Sod it option - You don't bother searching for traps and secret doors at all, which speeds the game up and makes it more fun (good), but then your Dwarf loses his ability to disarm, there is no point buying the tool kit, and it reduces your chances of successfully completing the quest (not good)

(c) Hybrid option - Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't search. Obviously this is a mixture between the two but it causes players to bounce between (a) until they get bored and then (b) until they hit a trap and get punished then they revert to (a) , rinse and repeat.

For me personally I don't want my players to have to choose between either having fun or winning, I want them to have fun whilst trying to win!

Another thing to watch out for is making finding secret doors conditional on a roll, in many quests to succeed the party must find a secret door, if they have to roll over and over again (potentially once per hero per section which adds up to a whole lot of searches in a typical quest) and/or revisit areas they thought they had already covered to look for a secret door they missed earlier then it gets boring quick.

I know you have sort of covered that situation but how do you tell which is the final attempt if you allow "once per character per section"? The Dwarf searches first and fails to find it, it is his final (only) attempt, but not the final attempt for the party as a whole as the other heroes could still search the area on their turn, so it isn't automatically found, but then the rest of the party decide not to search on their turns so it now turns out that the Dwarf's was the final search...

My own approach is summarised on an earlier post in this topic and I find it quick and simple. Also it means that if you as the Quest Creator want to make it certain that a secret door is found then place it in a passageway that the heroes need to pass through to complete the quest, if you want to make finding it likely but not guaranteed then place it in a room that the heroes need to pass though or in a double width passageway, if you want to make finding it unlikely then put it in an area of the dungeon that the heroes don't need to visit to complete the quest like a side passageway, a side room, a dead end passageway.

[Parzival]

Stuff I said, my house rule ideas, etc., etc.

One issue that I'll mention because I think it relates to an issue in both the official rules and your "Detect Traps" idea is that the search for traps and secret doors action (conditional or automatic) is that it forces the players to choose from several strategies none of which are great

(a) Thorough option - You search for traps and secret doors at every opportunity, this maximises your chances of successfully completing the quest (good) but makes the game longer and more boring (not good)

(b) Sod it option - You don't bother searching for traps and secret doors at all, which speeds the game up and makes it more fun (good), but then your Dwarf loses his ability to disarm, there is no point buying the tool kit, and it reduces your chances of successfully completing the quest (not good)

(c) Hybrid option - Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't search. Obviously this is a mixture between the two but it causes players to bounce between (a) until they get bored and then (b) until they hit a trap and get punished then they revert to (a) , rinse and repeat.

For me personally I don't want my players to have to choose between either having fun or winning, I want them to have fun whilst trying to win!

I agree that choosing between “thorough and slow” and “sod it and fast” is not exactly a winning choice. Trap and Secret Door searching is kinda boring RAW anyway. You have four heroes, you go into a new space, kill the monsters and then one searches for traps, one searches for secret doors, one searches for Treasure, and then the fourth patches up the screw up by the Treasure searcher. Might as well just make it all one search, as Zargon’s not gonna do anything in most cases unless a treasure search triggers a Wandering Monster or a quest/chamber-specific surprise. The result is automatic, so why not just have all the results all at once? Unless a quest is one of those infinite monster spawning pursuit things (like in Kellar’s Keep), there’s no pressure on the Heroes to move on once they’ve cleared a chamber or a corridor of foes. So everything is gonna get found… might as well just slap it all out there after the resident monsters are slain as waste time on the players remembering to say “I search for traps!” The only “Search” choice with any negative potential is the Treasure search. There’s no downside to a traps search or a secret door search. (On a side note, even in D&D with the uncertainty factor in play, the litany of search declarations can become boring, with a “gotcha” feeling if one of the players doesn’t remember to say it, like a reverse game of Simon Says.)

Another thing to watch out for is making finding secret doors conditional on a roll, in many quests to succeed the party must find a secret door, if they have to roll over and over again (potentially once per hero per section which adds up to a whole lot of searches in a typical quest) and/or revisit areas they thought they had already covered to look for a secret door they missed earlier then it gets boring quick.

I know you have sort of covered that situation but how do you tell which is the final attempt if you allow "once per character per section"? The Dwarf searches first and fails to find it, it is his final (only) attempt, but not the final attempt for the party as a whole as the other heroes could still search the area on their turn, so it isn't automatically found, but then the rest of the party decide not to search on their turns so it now turns out that the Dwarf's was the final search...

My idea is that the “final search” is the last search possible— that is, the fourth hero’s search. If all four heroes haven’t searched, and the party moves on, the door isn’t revealed until they decide to go back to the area and search again with the heroes who failed to search it the first time. Considering your actions and thinking through what you may have missed is part of the game.

It’s up to Zargon whether he wants to save time by giving clues as to where they haven’t looked, or allowing for a “no monster + no traps = instant ‘teleport’ move” to return to any given area (that can be returned to). If the Secret Door is no longer accessible for whatever reason, Zargon just declares victory when that happens. “Guys, you’re shut off from the exit now. There’s no way out. Zargon wins by default. Muah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!”
New heroes, new monsters, shuffle up the cards, go again.

Oh, and if the heroes have defeated the monsters, and have a path back to the exit with no monsters or other obstacles, then the return is automatic, “Ring of Return” or not. If Zargon has nothing left to stop them, then they have won, and get to cry “Huzzah!” in Zargon’s mopey face. (Note that this does not include access to unfound Artifacts.)

[Parzival]

Oh, there’s always the possibility that a Secret Door might be found simply by having a Monster come through it, either to ambush the party or be surprised by its presence. This might be going against a quest rule, and certainly breaks the “monsters don’t open doors” rule, but sometimes when things are stuck, you need to find away to move things along. “Goblin opens secret door, squeals and runs away” is a perfectly acceptable solution.