Line of Sight

[Gold Bearer]

I feel like I'm being an argumentative so and so, I don't mean to be.

Parzival: I get what you're saying and I like your thinking but if the target is in a straight line down a corridor and there's a figure between you and them you can't target the further one with a spell, unless it's an anywhere spell. I think of (and I think the rules are written in way that) around a corner is a separate corridor, the corner square is shared by both corridors.

StratosVX: Because rooms are not corridors. I don't get why you're having so much trouble getting over that you don't need LoS if you're in the same room as the target. It does make sense. As I said a few posts ago, it's easy to know where targets are if they're in the same room as you but not so easy in a corridor unless you can actually see them because you don't know how far back the are. It will never make complete sense in every situation just like most other rules, I don't know why you take exception to this one.

[Onan]

The reason the language is different for a corridor than for a room is because a corridor includes all squares of a corridor uninterrupted by a stone wall block. A corridor includes the corners, the intersections, and the path beyond them.

Yes, the boundaries of a passage are also undefined. For us it was clear that a passage runs in a straight line and has junctions into other passages. But you might say that around the corner it is still the same passage.

I think the writers of the rules took this problem into account in several places. One is the spell casting rule for rooms vs passages, the other is searching:

A whole room or all visible squares of a passage may be searched in one turn.

Maybe they thought that "same passage" would be too ambiguous.

But it looks like the concept of "same passage" was there in an early stage:

fireofwrathtvcommercial.JPG

This spell may be cast on any object or door in the same Room or Passage. The object and anything in it will then be destroyed. The spell may not be cast on Monsters or Players.

And I think it wouldn't be hard to re-establish it. Just give a proper definition of passage:
- runs in a straight line (around the corner is a new passage, junctions belong to 2 passages)
- may be split into 2 passages by a blocked square

Et voilà, we can use "same room or passage" for spell casting and searching. We only need a rule for casting into adjacent rooms or passages.

[CavemanLogic]

(https://boardgamegeek.com/image/9428246/cavemanlogic)

So how does it make *any* sense at all that the situations presented in A and B above should not be treated *exactly* the same? It shouldn't matter if you are in a room or a Corridor. The current ruleset (1990 NA, and 2021) both state that you need direct Line of Sight to Cast a Spell, or target with a Ranged Weapon.

I see no possible way that the minuscule Goblin Archer would be able to target the Wizard with an arrow, either from within the same room or within the same Corridor. The huge Dread Warrior and the Massive Gargoyle block LoS in both instances.

Similarly, I see no possible way that the Wizard would be able to target the minuscule Goblin Archer with a spell, either from within the same room or within the same Corridor. The Massive Gargoyle and the huge Dread Warrior block LoS in both instances. The Wizard can't effectively "see" the square he is targeting, so his spell *may* end up hitting the wall, or the Booksheld, or the Cupboard... or he *may* get lucky and actually hit the Goblin he is aiming at. There are very few spells in the game which specifically *do not* need LoS. Genie, and one or two others perhaps. The rest... LoS required.

Spellcasting *should* require LoS. The updated rules state that Spellcasting *does* require LoS. They fixed the sloppy 1st Edition rules way back in 1990.

Obviously, some people still prefer the older, out of date, rules. I grew up on the updated, fixed rules. But everyone can have their own preferences.

It makes zero sense that A and B should not be treated exactly the same, for both Spellcasting and Thrown/Ranged Weapons, in my opinion.

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

Goldbearer,

I'm not trying to be dense (at least not deliberately) but for me part of the confusion is the terminology that you are using. Sometimes you refer to the text block below as (1) "the line-of-sight rule for spellcasting".

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

But on other occasions you split it down into two distinct rules

2a. "The line-of-sight rule for spellcasting" (in passageways and different rooms)

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

2b."The rule for spellcasting" (in the same room) not a line-of-sight rule

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

So when you make statements like...

No the skulls of doom spell specifically states that you need LoS so it overrules the standard spell sight rules, just like genie (including its attack option), fire of wrath (unlike the 'Slight Embers of Very Mild Irritation' version) and spirit on vengeance but in this case making it inferior by limiting rather than expanding its range.

There are different responses depending on which terminology you are using.

If you are using option (1) above then that IS the line-of-sight rule for spellcasting so I don't see any reason why you would think that the Skulls of Doom spell card text, for example, would be intended to override the general spell targeting rules as "line-of-sight" being written on the card aligns with (1) "the line-of-sight rule for spell casting".

If you are using option (2) above then the use of the term "line-of-sight" on the spell card text would align with 2a. "The line-of-sight rule for spellcasting" (in passageways and different rooms), but would NOT align with 2b."The rule for spellcasting" (in the same room) not a line-of-sight rule so could be interpretated as an intent to override the general spell casting rules when the caster and target are in the same room. However for me that causes a couple of issues.

Unlike the Genie spell card, where the card text overrides the general rules but the card text tells you what rule to use instead "anywhere on the board", if you consider the Skulls of Doom spell to be overriding the general 2b."The rule for spellcasting" (in the same room) not a line-of-sight rule, then what rule are you supposed to be using instead?

The line-of-sight rule where the caster and target are in the same room? Either that is (1) or (2b) above in which case it isn't an override of the general rules it IS the general rule, or it is another rule but I don't see that in the rulebook or on the spell card text. You would have to adapt the general rules by creating another variant like below, which I'll refer to as (3), just for use with those specific spells.

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

This leads to another issue where a caster couldn't target the Dwarf armed with a crossbow in the same room with the Skulls of Doom spell if a Fimir is placed between them blocking line-of-sight (according to rule 3), but the Dwarf could hit the caster with his crossbow as the crossbow uses rule 2b. That would not be a satisfactory outcome at my table.

One way around this is to assume that the terminology used in Against the Ogre Horde and Wizards of Morcar wasn't intended to be a spell specific override to the general spell casting rules but was intended to be an update to, or a clarification of, the general spell casting rules (or possibly the writers knew that was how the original rules operated and they weren't intending to change anything).

This means to me that taking these two later quest books into consideration, it is clear that line-of-sight rules for spellcasting and missile weapons was intended to our rule (3)

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

This removes both the issue above between the caster with Skulls of Doom and the Dwarf with a crossbow and also removes the issue of different logic being applied in the same set up between passageways and rooms that StratosVX and others have mentioned.

StratosVx,

BlackJax, this is up to you, but I would advise you to discuss this with your fellow players and pick the interpretation you all agree on, even if this means you change the rule you pick based on who is playing. If you go with the US version, at least the logic of rules are consistent.

I did exactly that and found something we were all happy with, below, my intention here was to just play that back to a wider audience to confirm that my thinking was sound.

Line-of-sight rule (for seeing/determining what is placed on the board)

Miniatures are only visible to you if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible.

Line-of-sight rule (for spell/missile targeting)

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

I think that these were the rules that the designers actually played (which is more spirit than letter), when the rules of play were written for the 1st edition (UK) and then the designers saw people playing according to the rules as written they realised that something had been lost in translation so they split the original rule into two in the 2nd edition, one for seeing/determining what is placed on the board, one for spell missile targeting which brought the letter closer to the spirit, and later when Against the Ogre Horde and Wizards of Morcar were released these included a further rewording on the spell cards themselves which resulted in the rules that I have written above.

The reason why I wouldn't choose the US/NA version is because I think that was built on the 1st edition and whilst they removed the "models in the same room are always visible" statement which isn't always correct from the 1st edition, they missed the other issue that the 2nd edition corrected by splitting out the "Line-of-sight rule (for seeing/determining what is placed on the board)" from the Line-of-sight rule (for spell/missile targeting)

The modern version adopted the US/NA version, as i have learned through the Inn, as its starting point so included the same issue, but I have read at least one of the newer versions of the modern rules and noticed that it has now corrected this issue by splitting out the "Line-of-sight rule (for seeing/determining what is placed on the board)" from the Line-of-sight rule (for spell/missile targeting) in the same way as the 2nd edition so perhaps now we might have returned to the original way of playing and it only took a few decades and a few versions of the instructions

EDIT:

Onan,

Sorry I missed your post in all the flurry, but I think you are correct when you say that the "prototype" rules probably were around the "same passage" and "same room" concept and that these may have pre-dated the introduction of blocked square tiles (and before blocked square tiles were introduced the "Miniatures in the same room are always visible" statement was also true).

Once blocked square tiles are introduced that adds a further level of complexity around seeing/visibility/line-of-sight and the definition of a passageway (and even the definition of a room, because in theory you could split a room into two, in the same way that you can split a passageway into two using blocked square tiles) which is why I think they abandoned the "same passage" and "same room" concept (but forgot to remove the "Miniatures in the same room are always visible" statement until the NA version came out)

So whilst it might be possible to re-establish it for rooms and passages, although I think this might prove harder than you think, when you consider double width passages and rooms that can be partially but not completely blocked by blocked square tiles, it would, as you acknowledge still leave you with needing a rule for casting into adjacent rooms or passages.

I find the inclusion of two line-of-sight rules, one for visibility/seeing and one for spell casting/missile attacks, as suggested above is the simplest way through this.

[CavemanLogic]

Goldbearer,

I'm not trying to be dense (at least not deliberately) but for me part of the confusion is the terminology that you are using. Sometimes you refer to the text block below as (1) "the line-of-sight rule for spellcasting".

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

But on other occasions you split it down into two distinct rules...

That first quote block from the old original rules is talking about two different things: 1) Spellcasting in Rooms, and 2) Spellcasting in corridors (passages). The last line of that block ("If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible") *only* applies to the second thing (Corridors, but *not* Rooms). That text block can then be broken down into two different blocks:

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

and

Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

The 1990 NA, and the 2021 updated rules fix that discrepancy by requiring LoS for Spellcasting by default, with the exceptions on a few Spell cards (Genie and a few others).

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

CavemanLogic,

I agree that your split is logical when you view that piece of text in isolation but there is another way to look at this if you consider that block of text from the UK 2nd edition, not in isolation but in combination with the "what can be seen" from that same edition rules of play.

"Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed onto the board. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible."

"Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible."

If you analyse these two pieces of text together then a different logical split appears between what you can see, the first block, and what you can target. What you can target could have been written as

"You need to be able to see the target, refer back to the "what can be seen rules", AND if the traced line passes through another miniature then the miniature is not visible."

I think that at some point someone with good intentions decided to save players from having to flick back through the rule book by copy and pasting the "what can be seen" rules into the spell casting rules section and then rewrote the section into a single rule rather than two separate ones, but by doing so they compounded the confusion by including the spell casting specific condition of the traced line being blocked if it passes through another miniature in only the second clause, the piece that applies to different rooms and passageways only.

The 1990 NA, and the 2021 updated rules fix that discrepancy by requiring LoS for Spellcasting by default, with the exceptions on a few Spell cards (Genie and a few others).

Yes, removing the "miniatures in the same room are always visible" clause and requiring LoS for spellcasting and missile attacks by default did fix ONE of the issues with the UK 1st edition rules (that the UK 2nd edition failed to correct, although the AtOH and WoM quest books *may* have resolved it), but the 1990 NA rules missed a SECOND issue present in the UK 1st edition rules that the UK 2nd edition did fix.

That issue is the "line of monsters in a passageway" issue where you should be able to SEE all the monsters in a line, so place them on the board, but only be able to target, with spells and/or missile attacks, the first monster in the line.

The UK 2nd edition fixed this issue by splitting the rule into two, one for seeing/visibility/line-of-sight that ignores other miniatures, the second for targeting/line-of-fire, that is blocked by other miniatures.

This is why I think the 3rd attempt under the UK rules, the AtOH and WoM version is the closest to the "true" version, at least until the most recent version (I think it is the most recent modern version Avalon Hill F3649) where I can see evidence of that split being restored.

Page 12 states

"...place on the gameboard any doors, blocked-square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the hero's line of sight. (If the line passes through a wall or closed door then the miniature or tile is not visible.)"

Page 14 states

"Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on the centre of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge"

Which is clearly a return to the UK 2nd edition principle of a separate rule for seeing/visibility and a separate rule for targeting with spells and missile attacks.

Note: I'm not whole-heartedly endorsing that ruleset either as it brings forth its own set of issues, both old and new, which appears to be continuing the HQ tradition of rule writing!

[CavemanLogic]

CavemanLogic,

The 1990 NA, and the 2021 updated rules fix that discrepancy by requiring LoS for Spellcasting by default, with the exceptions on a few Spell cards (Genie and a few others).

Yes, removing the "miniatures in the same room are always visible" clause and requiring LoS for spellcasting and missile attacks by default did fix ONE of the issues with the UK 1st edition rules (that the UK 2nd edition failed to correct, although the AtOH and WoM quest books *may* have resolved it), but the 1990 NA rules missed a SECOND issue present in the UK 1st edition rules that the UK 2nd edition did fix.

That issue is the "line of monsters in a passageway" issue where you should be able to SEE all the monsters in a line, so place them on the board, but only be able to target, with spells and/or missile attacks, the first monster in the line.

The 1990 NA rules didn't fix just one of those issues. It fixed *both* of those issues.

The UK 2nd edition fixed this issue by splitting the rule into two, one for seeing/visibility/line-of-sight that ignores other miniatures, the second for targeting/line-of-fire, that is blocked by other miniatures.

This is why I think the 3rd attempt under the UK rules, the AtOH and WoM version is the closest to the "true" version, at least until the most recent version (I think it is the most recent modern version Avalon Hill F3649) where I can see evidence of that split being restored.

Page 12 states

"...place on the gameboard any doors, blocked-square tiles, and monsters that are directly within the hero's line of sight. (If the line passes through a wall or closed door then the miniature or tile is not visible.)"

That exact same text is on page 13 of the 1990 NA rules.

Page 14 states

"Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on the centre of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, hero or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge"

That exact same text is on page 15 of the 1990 NA rules.

...Which is clearly a return to the UK 2nd edition principle of a separate rule for seeing/visibility and a separate rule for targeting with spells and missile attacks.

Note: I'm not whole-heartedly endorsing that ruleset either as it brings forth its own set of issues, both old and new!

Yes, the 1990 UK 2nd Edition rules were an improvement over the 1989 UK 1st Edition rules.

But the 1990 NA rules did fix the issue of separating out the two different versions of "seeing" for revealing rooms, and "seeing" for targeting.

Cheers!

[BlackJax]

The difference is subtle but on page 13 of the NA instruction booklet it doesn't actually define the line-of-sight rule it just refers you to page 15 "SEE" rule which, you are correct, match the rule on page 14 of the UK 2nd edition for line-of-sight for spell casting and missile attacks.

However the rule on page 12 of the UK 2nd edition covering line-of-sight for seeing/visibility (and not spellcasting / missile attacks) doesn't appear in the NA instruction booklet.

This is the line-of-sight rule that ignores intervening miniatures, both the rule on page 15 of the NA rules and page 14 of the UK rules are the variant that is blocked by intervening miniatures.

This is why under the UK rules the Elf can see both the Goblin and the Fimir but can only target the Goblin, but under the NA rules the Elf can see and target the Goblin but cannot see the Fimir at all.

LOS.png

[Gold Bearer]

This spell may be cast on any object or door in the same Room or Passage. The object and anything in it will then be destroyed. The spell may not be cast on Monsters or Players.

That explains the card art.

So how does it make *any* sense at all that the situations presented in A and B above should not be treated *exactly* the same?

Because they are not the same.

The current ruleset (1990 NA, and 2021) both state that you need direct Line of Sight to Cast a Spell, or target with a Ranged Weapon.

That's not the 'current' ruleset, that's a more 'recent' ruleset, although wasn't 2nd edition after the dumbed down US version?

I see no possible way that the minuscule Goblin Archer would be able to target the Wizard with an arrow, either from within the same room or within the same Corridor. The huge Dread Warrior and the Massive Gargoyle block LoS in both instances.

In no official rule set is it the case that he can!

[Similarly, I see no possible way that the Wizard would be able to target the minuscule Goblin Archer with a spell, either from within the same room or within the same Corridor. The Massive Gargoyle and the huge Dread Warrior block LoS in both instances.

Yes they block LoS in both instances, but you don't need LoS to cast (most) spells if the target is in the same room as the caster.

There are very few spells in the game which specifically *do not* need LoS. Genie, and one or two others perhaps. The rest... LoS required.

Rubbish! I already listed the ones that need LoS. Arrows of the Night, Skulls of Doom (the two projectile spells), Orc Berserker, Summon Orcs, Summon Goblins (an orcy thing apparently) and the three chaos sorcerer spells.

Spellcasting *should* require LoS.

No it *shouldn't*. Unless it's a projectile, or just for flavour or to nurf it a bit.

The updated rules state that Spellcasting *does* require LoS. They fixed the sloppy 1st Edition rules way back in 1990.

There was nothing to 'fix', it was clearly intentional. It's far more sloppy in the dumbed down US version, one rule for all making spells less distinctive.

Obviously, some people still prefer the older, out of date, rules. I grew up on the updated, fixed rules. But everyone can have their own preferences.

They're not out of date. Technically this one is:

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Models in the same room are always visible. Models in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line from the spell-caster to the target. If the line passes through another model, through a wall, or through a closed door, then the model is not visible.

This is the up to date version:

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

Notice the emphasis on the always. Yes some of us do prefer a version that wasn't dumbed down, and some of those weren't even aware that such a (very funny)thing existed before coming here. LOVE the extra content though, it felt like Christmas as a kid.

It makes zero sense that A and B should not be treated exactly the same, for both Spellcasting and Thrown/Ranged Weapons, in my opinion.

With respect, don't care. I much prefer the better the rules, but that's not the point. This is about what the rules actually are. People were trying to claim it was LoS in the European version when it clearly says right there that's simply not the case.

One is a physical object that travels in space, the other is a make believe exclusion of physical reality for fun. It's more characterful, more interesting and more fun if magic behaves differently. The projectile spells do require LoS.

Goldbearer,

I'm not trying to be dense (at least not deliberately) but for me part of the confusion is the terminology that you are using. Sometimes you refer to the text block below as (1) "the line-of-sight rule for spellcasting".

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

But on other occasions you split it down into two distinct rules

2a. "The line-of-sight rule for spellcasting" (in passageways and different rooms)

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible.

2b."The rule for spellcasting" (in the same room) not a line-of-sight rule

Spells can be cast at monsters or characters provided they are visible to the spell-caster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible.

So when you make statements like...

No the skulls of doom spell specifically states that you need LoS so it overrules the standard spell sight rules, just like genie (including its attack option), fire of wrath (unlike the 'Slight Embers of Very Mild Irritation' version) and spirit on vengeance but in this case making it inferior by limiting rather than expanding its range.

There are different responses depending on which terminology you are using.

1. Spells as default are LoS and/or the caster being in the same room as the target.

2. Spell pecific rules (like a target anywhere or LoS needed) obviously take priority.

Where is the confusion?

If the caster can't target the dwarf because there's a fimir in the way the the dwarf can't target the caster with a crossbow, because there's a fimir in the way.

The WoM LoS spells clearly were intentional. They apply only to the two projectile spells other than the orc shaman who doesn't use the standard spell targeting rules with any of his spells. For AtOH same thing, the chaos sorcerer's mind spell require sight on the target. The chaos sorcerer's pells are very unique anyway.

LoS is redundant wording in the US version only, all I do like to use those ones as LoS spells because it makes sense. Use the rules on the spell card and if it doesn't say who it can target it's the standard rules.

The 1990 NA, and the 2021 updated rules fix that discrepancy by requiring LoS for Spellcasting by default, with the exceptions on a few Spell cards (Genie and a few others).

It's not a discrepancy, it's just how the rules are. There was no fix, merely an inferior version in a far off land for the sake of simplicity to cater to a different target audience.

The 1990 NA rules didn't fix just one of those issues. It fixed *both* of those issues.

Lol!

[CavemanLogic]

However the rule on page 12 of the UK 2nd edition covering line-of-sight for seeing/visibility (and not spellcasting / missile attacks) doesn't appear in the NA instruction booklet.

Do you have a link to the UK 2nd Edition rulebook you are referencing? Because I'm not seeing that. The two UK rulebooks I have downloaded are from the UK English site here on Ye Olde Inn.

https://english.yeoldeinn.com/system.php

The 1st Edition rulebook has a date of 1989 on the back cover. The 2nd Edition rulebook has a date of 1990 on the back cover. Is there a *newer* UK rulebook that you are referencing?

The 1990 2nd Edition rulebook from Ye Olde Inn has the headings "Secret doors and traps," "Traps," "Pit Trap," and "Jumping a Pit" on page 12. So clearly we are looking at two different things.

Cheers!