Line of Sight and Furniture discussion

[Parzival]

I will note that the updated HeroQuest Companion App still can’t handle the Genie spell properly. It simply doesn’t acknowledge the attack capability of that spell, even if the Wizard is standing next to his target— nor does it give the option of “Follow the Card’s Instructions”— you can open a door or you can cancel the spell. So it’s no help at all!

My rule is that Wizard can cast Genie on a target if the Wizard can “see” that target— that is, is in the same room without an intervening bookcase/cabinet/column, or is at a corner capable of looking down a corridor. Other figures don’t block the spell, as it’s not a direct attack emanating from the Wizard, but rather a literal Genie being summoned and given a task. The Genie thus moves anywhere, ignoring anything in its path (other than stone walls) and slams the foe its master has chosen.

Other spells, which must emanate from the Wizard, are blocked according to LoS, unless the spell’s card text states otherwise.

As for furniture blocking LoS (as in the OP’s image), no, neither a table or a chair or a chest or a desk or an altar or a sarcophagus or a weapon’s rack or the torture rack block LoS to anything. Real life common sense applies— I’ve never had a chair block a standing person from view, nor for that matter a table, chest, desk or anything remotely resembling the same. That doesn’t mean that someone couldn’t conceivably crouch behind such things and hide, but that’s not what’s going on in a HeroQuest adventure. I might, as Zargon, create a chamber where a small foe deliberately hides from view— as say a goblin behind the throne chair— but unless a published quest says such a thing, then you can see ‘em all.

Now, I could imagine house ruling that certain furniture is crossable at a movement cost— say two movement points per square of furniture crossed— allowing the Barbarian to “leap over the table” to attack a foe; a very cinematic moment (and yes, I’d let nimbler monsters do the same— goblins and orcs but not skeletons, zombies, Dread/Chaos Warriors, Fimir/Abominations, etc.). But that’s not something I’ve done.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Many people play "line of sight" differently. Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?" I don't think so. If you have an orc standing between a hero and a goblin the hero can probably see the goblin but doesn't have "Line of sight." So the hero can't fire a Crossbow through the Orc to hit the Goblin. But when it comes to Spells, I'd allow the Wizard to cast Genie or Ball of Flame.
As Zargon you need to make such decisions.

Whilst I understand, as the Evil Wizard player you may be called upon to make rule interpretations in edge cases, rare situations where the existing rules don't cut it, and of course you are free to interpret the rules and apply house rules at your own table, but I don't think that should mean that the Evil Wizard player needs to intervene with rule interpretations and decisions just to handle basic, every game types of occurrences.

An orc standing between a hero and a goblin doesn't strike me as a rare occurrence that should need a rule adjudication or interpretation, it is the kind of thing that crops up regularly.

Under the original ruleset (1st edition) this scenario is covered in the rulebook, if it occurs with all figures in the same room then the rules state that you can see everything in the same room as you so the hero would be able to target the goblin, if it happens outside of the same room, then the rules state that the orc would block LOS so the hero could not target the goblin.

Under the updated ruleset (2nd edition) this scenario is covered in the rulebook, if it occurs with all figures in the same room then the rules state that you can target everything in the same room, if it happens outside of the same room, then the rules state that the orc would block LOS so the hero could not target the goblin.

Under the 1990 remake (and I'm less familiar with this ruleset so feel free to correct me), I think that the "same room" rule was scrapped and the differentiation between LOS for seeing and LOS for targeting was scrapped so I think this scenario is covered in the rulebook, and the rules state that the orc would block LOS so the hero could not target the goblin.

The Genie spell under the earlier rulesets is something of an exception to most spells in that it doesn't need LOS (as the card contains the words "attack anyone on the board") that may not be the case in the remake(s).

[Parzival]

The Genie spell under the earlier rulesets is something of an exception to most spells in that it doesn't need LOS (as the card contains the words "attack anyone on the board") that may not be the case in the remake(s).

Just looked at my 2021 card. The Genie can attack any target in the caster’s line of sight.
So I was wrong about it being an “anyone in the room” spell. In my defense, I got muddled by the failure of the App to let it target anything at all.

[wallydubbs]

Many people play "line of sight" differently. Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?" I don't think so. If you have an orc standing between a hero and a goblin the hero can probably see the goblin but doesn't have "Line of sight." So the hero can't fire a Crossbow through the Orc to hit the Goblin. But when it comes to Spells, I'd allow the Wizard to cast Genie or Ball of Flame.
As Zargon you need to make such decisions.

Whilst I understand, as the Evil Wizard player you may be called upon to make rule interpretations in edge cases, rare situations where the existing rules don't cut it, and of course you are free to interpret the rules and apply house rules at your own table, but I don't think that should mean that the Evil Wizard player needs to intervene with rule interpretations and decisions just to handle basic, every game types of occurrences.

An orc standing between a hero and a goblin doesn't strike me as a rare occurrence that should need a rule adjudication or interpretation, it is the kind of thing that crops up regularly.

Under the original ruleset (1st edition) this scenario is covered in the rulebook, if it occurs with all figures in the same room then the rules state that you can see everything in the same room as you so the hero would be able to target the goblin, if it happens outside of the same room, then the rules state that the orc would block LOS so the hero could not target the goblin.

The Genie spell under the earlier rulesets is something of an exception to most spells in that it doesn't need LOS (as the card contains the words "attack anyone on the board") that may not be the case in the remake(s).

I don't believe I ever designated a Goblin standing behind an Orc as a "rare event." This is common.
What I'm reasoning is that despite the Genie spell specifically saying "Line of sight," it's reasonable if not justifiable to apply this to any monster the Wizard can see.

Or I don't necessarily describe this as intervening from the rules as much as reaching a reasonable judgement call justifiable to the players and myself.
The rules also say that every hero can search a room for treasure once, but I know of many people who play it with a single search per room. I like and have adopted this notion. A lot of people do this. Lord knows when applying the Wizards of Morcar spells, one could tweak those spells, so I don't see an issue.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

If I have understood correctly, the OP was asking a question (in the Official Rules section) with three points of clarity around LOS and furniture, so the answer depends on which official version of the rules you are using (and whether the spell in question needs LOS in that version)

a) If you are using the first or second edition rules and the caster and targets are in the same room then officially yes you can because targets in the same room are always visible and furniture doesn't block LOS*

b) If you are using the 1990 remake rules (whether the spell requires LOS or not) then yes you can because furniture doesn't block LOS*

(*there is an open question here around whether tall furniture that physically - based on the models provided - would block LOS but there is an unwritten convention that tall furniture is always placed against walls so that this situation doesn't arise and therefore a rule isn't needed, if in a quest that convention hasn't been applied then this would be a situation in which the player would need to house rule)

So...in answer to the OPs questions about the official rules

1. Does furniture block LOS at all? No (*allowing for the open question above)
2. Does furniture only block LOS on the visible outline of the 3D print or of the whole tile it's standing on? Not applicable (based on the previous answer)
3. Do two different pieces of furniture on diagonally adjacent tiles block the diagonal space between them? Not applicable (based on the previous answer)

But the interesting part is the open question which is something that is relatively rare and does need players to house rule, as opposed to the "Goblin standing behind an Orc" scenario which isn't a rare event and doesn't need a fictional character to adjudicate as it is clear in all versions of the official rules.

[Kurgan]

The general rule for spells in the NA edition (and remake by extension) is that it requires LOS to the target (this edition uses "see" and "line of sight" interchangeably"), but the Genie is the one GS spell where it actually says so on the card if I recall correctly.

So I treat every spell in the NA/remake as if it requires LOS, unless the card says otherwise (or if the quest notes say otherwise, in the case of some bad guy spells).

[wallydubbs]

The general rule for spells in the NA edition (and remake by extension) is that it requires LOS to the target (this edition uses "see" and "line of sight" interchangeably"), but the Genie is the one GS spell where it actually says so on the card if I recall correctly.

So I treat every spell in the NA/remake as if it requires LOS, unless the card says otherwise (or if the quest notes say otherwise, in the case of some bad guy spells).

You're right, Genie is the only spell that specifies "Line of Sight." I recall in the original European edition Fire of Wrath was the only exception to line of sight. Despite the Rulebook explaining Line of Sight, I think it's okay for some Zargon's to slightly tweak the rules for the benefit of the heroes. But I do understand where you're coming from by not.

[Kurgan]

Oh I do it all the time, I'm just saying that's how I interpret the "rules as written" for this edition.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I recall in the original European edition Fire of Wrath was the only exception to line of sight.

Fire of Wrath and Genie both had the same “anywhere on the board” exception phrase.

[Parzival]

Text of Genie card, 2021 Hasbro edition: “This spell conjures up a genie who does one of the following: opens any door on the board (revealing what lies beyond) or uses 5 combat dice to attack any monster within your line of sight.”

Notice that this card breaks two major “see/line of sight” rules:
1. The wizard doesn’t have to see the door at all, just know where it is.
2. When the door is opened, what is behind it is fully revealed to all players, even if no one can see the door, much less anything in the room!

Text of Fire of Wrath: “This spell may be cast on any one monster, blasting it with flames. It inflicts 1 Body Point of damage, unless the monster can immediately roll a 5 or 6 using 1 red die.”

(Technically there’s an unclear antecedent starting the second sentence, but in context the intent is understandable.)

I will note that of all the other spells, none other than Genie mention line of sight or visibility at all, but merely echo the “any one monster/hero” text of FoW. So Genie is an explicit statement probably to separate the attack ability from the “any where on the board” ability of the door opening function. The existence of the phrase “line of sight” here does not alter the need for line of sight for all of the other spells, as called for in the rulebook.

Which also brings me to a question— has anybody as a player or Zargon/Morcar ever actually used Genie to open a door rather than drop a bomb of death on a BBG?

Also, my ruling would be that once a door is open, a monster in the chamber may leave the chamber and “disappear into the Fog of War” where it can secretly maneuver towards the party… not probably something the heroes really want to happen…