Line of Sight

[BlackJax]

Sorry I wasn't using the original but a PDF version that appears to have done its own thing when it comes to page numbering.

In the UK 2nd edition the "what can be seen?" rule is on p9 and crucially ignores intervening figures when determining line-of-sight (for seeing) but the rule on p11 casting a spell also has a line-of-sight rule which crucially includes the phrase "or another miniature" in italics, so this edition at least makes the distinction between line-of-sight for seeing and line-of-sight for shooting (which is what I was saying the NA edition doesn't do)

I think I now understand your interpretation but just want to play it back to make sure I have it correct as these things are subtle.

Figure 1 Passage.png

In figure 1

1a. The Elf can see the Goblin, can target the Goblin with a crossbow and can target the Goblin with the Arrows of the Night spell
1b. The Elf cannot see the Orc (because the Goblin blocks LOS so the Orc wouldn't even be placed on the board)
1c. The Elf cannot target the Orc with a crossbow (because the Goblin blocks LOS)
1d. The Elf cannot target the Orc with the Arrows of the Night spell (because the Goblin blocks LOS)

Figure 2 Room.png

In figure 2 (note that the relative positions of the figures is not changed)

2a. The Elf can see the Goblin, can target the Goblin with a crossbow and can target the Goblin with the Arrows of the Night spell (no change)
2b. The Elf CAN see the Orc (even though the Goblin blocks LOS)
2c. The Elf CAN target the Orc with a crossbow (even though the Goblin blocks LOS)
2d. The Elf CANNOT target the Orc with the Arrows of the Night spell (because the Goblin blocks LOS, but if the Orc had a Crossbow then he could shoot the Elf from exactly the same position)

[CavemanLogic]

Sorry I wasn't using the original but a PDF version that appears to have done its own thing when it comes to page numbering.

Yeah, I always try to quote the page number printed on the rulebook page itself, rather than the page number of the PDF. Those can be different.

In the UK 2nd edition the "what can be seen?" rule is on p9 and crucially ignores intervening figures when determining line-of-sight (for seeing) but the rule on p11 casting a spell also has a line-of-sight rule which crucially includes the phrase "or another miniature" in italics, so this edition at least makes the distinction between line-of-sight for seeing and line-of-sight for shooting (which is what I was saying the NA edition doesn't do)

Well, damn. I was wrong. I thought the 1990 NA rules *did* differentiate between LoS for revealing Rooms/Corridors, and LoS for Targeting with Spells/Ranged Weapons. It looks like it doesn't. But the 2021 reprint (the most up to date and current ruleset, and the ruleset that I use in my games) *does* make that distinction. On page 12 of the 2021 reprint rules, it states:

How Zargon Reacts to Hero Movement
When a hero looks down a corridor, place on the gameboard any monsters that are directly within the hero’s line of sight. (If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature or tile is not visible.) When a hero opens a door, place on the gameboard the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room.

So, only a "wall or closed door" blocks LoS for revealing the contents of a Corridor or Room. Later, on page 14 of the 2021 reprint rulebook, it talks about what visibility is required to Cast a Spell:

Action 2: Cast a Spell
See (Line of Sight)
For a hero to cast a spell, the target must be visible. Heroes and monsters are only visible if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the spellcaster to the target.

A Good Rule of Thumb: Draw an invisible straight line between the center of the square the spellcaster is on and the center of the square the target is on. If the line does not cross a wall, closed door, hero, or monster, the target is declared visible, even if the line just touches a corner or wall edge. The following diagram shows an example of what is visible.

(The rules then insert the "infamous" LoS diagram, with incorrectly drawn line from Elf to middle Orc).

For Spellcasting, the rules further add "Hero, or Monster" to the restrictions on LoS, while keeping the Wall and Closed Door restrictions from the earlier LoS rules for exploration.

I think I now understand your interpretation but just want to play it back to make sure I have it correct as these things are subtle.

It looks like my LoS rules are not clear. The 1990 NA rules are more strict than I was remembering. I *did* explain my LoS rules nearly four years ago, way back on page 7 of this same (now 16 page) thread. Actually all of page 7 of this thread is a good read.

https://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5839&start=60#p118579

Basically, in a nutshell, the rulebook uses the terms "seeing" and "Line of Sight" somewhat interchangeably, even though there are two different definitions for LoS. The rulebooks even use the term "Line of Sight" in *both* the revealing Rooms/Corridors section *and* in the targeting with Spells section, even though it defines those two acts differently. Since the 2021 rulebook specifically calls out in BOLD the term "See (Line of Sight)" in the Cast a Spell section, I use the term "Line of Sight" for Casting a Spell or targeting an enemy with a Ranged Weapon.

Then I chose the term Field of Vision for the wider view you use when revealing corridors and rooms. Field of Vision is a wider peripheral view of *everything* in the room/corridor, whereas Line of Sight is a more narrow, focused line that you use to target an enemy. It is a sort of I can see that there is a closed door behind that Goblin, who is hiding behind that Orc. But when revealing the contents of a Corridor or Room, the Orc, Goblin, and closed door would *all* be placed on the board at the same time.

Plainly put, Field of Vision allows you to *see* that there are other Monsters and a door behind the Orc, but because of Line of Sight you aren't able to *target* them.

Oh, and are you still not able to view any Imgur hosted images? *Maybe* this will help, I don't know...

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/unable-to-view-images-posted-via-imgur.3877920/

Clearing your browser cache and using a VPN were recommended solutions. Don't know if either would work for you though...

Figure 1 Passage.png

In figure 1

1a. The Elf can see the Goblin, can target the Goblin with a crossbow and can target the Goblin with the Arrows of the Night spell
1b. The Elf cannot see the Orc (because the Goblin blocks LOS so the Orc wouldn't even be placed on the board)
1c. The Elf cannot target the Orc with a crossbow (because the Goblin blocks LOS)
1d. The Elf cannot target the Orc with the Arrows of the Night spell (because the Goblin blocks LOS)

Hopefully you understand my interpretation of the rules better now. But in any case...

1a. Correct.
1b. Not correct. The Orc (and the Goblin) would be placed on the board as soon as the Elf could see down the Corridor.
1c. Correct.
1d. Correct.

Figure 2 Room.png

In figure 2 (note that the relative positions of the figures is not changed)

2a. The Elf can see the Goblin, can target the Goblin with a crossbow and can target the Goblin with the Arrows of the Night spell (no change)
2b. The Elf CAN see the Orc (even though the Goblin blocks LOS)
2c. The Elf CAN target the Orc with a crossbow (even though the Goblin blocks LOS)
2d. The Elf CANNOT target the Orc with the Arrows of the Night spell (because the Goblin blocks LOS, but if the Orc had a Crossbow then he could shoot the Elf from exactly the same position)

2a. Correct.
2b. Correct.
2c. Not correct. The Elf does not have direct LoS to the Orc. The 2021 reprint rules does *not* make everything within a room automatically visible. Other figures still block LoS inside a room, just as they do in a corridor.
2d. Mostly correct. The Elf CANNOT target the Orc with Arrows of Night, and the Orc CANNOT target the Elf with a Crossbow, because both require direct LoS.

Hopefully everything is clear now?

And if you want to read my initial post over on BGG (the one where HispaZargon said "your BGG analysis is so good"), where the images should all be visible to you since they are hosted on BGG and not Imgur, here's the link:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2834485/article/39709314#39709314

Cheers!

[Gold Bearer]

2c. The Elf CAN target the Orc with a crossbow (even though the Goblin blocks LOS)
2d. The Elf CANNOT target the Orc with the Arrows of the Night spell (because the Goblin blocks LOS, but if the Orc had a Crossbow then he could shoot the Elf from exactly the same position)

You need LoS to the target to attack with a weapon. Targeting anyone in the same room as the caster is just for (most) spells, they work differently to physical projectiles unless the spell card says you need LoS (or can be used on a target anywhere).

Arrows of the Night does require LoS (in this case because it's a projectile spell). Physical ranged attacks always require LoS, if the Elf can't target the orc with Arrows of the Night because of blocked LoS then the orc can't target the elf with a crossbow for the same reason.

[BlackJax]

I thought for a moment I had grasped it but never mind.

My intent for chipping in on this topic was to share my own rules in this area posted here, so that I could make sure that the wording is clear and understandable (whether you agree or not) and having now applied a few suggested tweaks I'm happy that it is, and to make sure I hadn't missed anything obvious (and I had missed a couple of things, not necessarily obvious, but further tweaking has been applied so these are now fixed). And finally to validate my suspicion that my reading of the UK edition rules around "opening a door, moves you through the door" allows for a cleaner, simpler LOS ruleset, which I am now convinced that not only does it allow for a cleaner, simpler LOS ruleset, it may well have been designed that way for exactly that reason as handling doors in this way means that your figure is always IN the new room or passageway when you reveal the contents which simplifies things massively.

I have to admit that I find trying to get my head around the various official rulesets (possibly 5: UK 1st ed, UK 2nd ed, UK 3rd ed - the AtOH & WoM, NA, 202x) which all seem to be different and the scores of house rules in this area makes my brain ache, so I think I'll bow out gracefully (or disgracefully) on this topic for a while but thank you all for an informative and thorough debate

[wallydubbs]

Everyone can argue, point and counterpoint their own interpretation and I'll respect your perspective. But the way I'd play, I'd take the height of a Dwarf and Goblins and Ogres into account. You could probably see an Orc standing behind a Goblin. If you aim high enough with your crossbow you can target him.
If there's an Abomination standing in front of the Orc, the hero might be able to see the Orc but won't be able to target them unless he has the Dead Eye skill.
If we have an Ogre standing in front of the Orc, the hero probably won't see him, nor be able to target him. I'd say Zargon should use his discretion.

[Gold Bearer]

But the rules aren't an interpretation, they're very clear in both versions.

Using sizes is a house rule that makes but I'd formalise it so it's clear by giving everything a 'creature size' stat. Maybe five: Small, Standard, Large, Huge, Enormous.

[wallydubbs]

Yes, but I don't think there's any players who follow the rules to a T. In fact, some rules aren't even completely specified, such as changing weapons and whatnot. I may not play line of sight exactly by the rules... In fact, it seems somewhat confusing or uneven to other players. I'm saying, as a Zargon, how I work it out for my players . You're allowed to pick whatever works for you.

[Gold Bearer]

Of course, everybody (EWPs/DMs/GMs specifically) should play the rules however they and their players like. One of the great things about HQ is that it naturally encourages that more than any other game.

I just meant that the official rules aren't an interpretation if those rules are clear (which they very much are in both versions for what can be 'seen') so at least we all have the same base rules starting point for each version.

[Daedalus]

A return to Pass through rock - furniture and monsters and the matter of seeing into a room got me to thinking about what a Hero can see and how this affects the reveal of a room. I'm focused on the NA rules, but am inspired by the peering into corridors hack used by some EU players.

‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐----------------------------

TLDR;
The revealing of all visible contents in a room when a door is opened can be related to line of sight by extending A Good Rule Of Thumb on p. 15 to a new case: During movement, a Hero's line of sight may be drawn from anywhere within the square he is on to the center of the square the target is on. The result is that for purposes of placing the contents of a room, line of sight can be drawn to every squares of a room, even all squares extending to the right or left of the doorway.

‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐--------‐‐---‐--------‐------‐----------------------------

As a Hero, while moving, you may "look" down a corridor or through an open door. Looking gives you the opportunity to see what is directly within your line of sight, such as closed doors, blocked square spaces and monsters.

Looking is broken down into two cases, "down a corridor" and "through a door." Both cases involve line of sight . . . sort of (more on that below.) Note that the prepositions aren't interchangeable, implying that different types of looking are called for. The two cases of when a Hero "looks" are next further defined in consecutive statements.

. . . When a Hero "looks" down a corridor, place on the gameboard any closed doors, blocked square tiles and monsters that are directly within the Hero's line of sight. (See page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight.) When a Hero opens a door, place on the game-board the monsters, treasure chests, and any other items that belong in that room.

The three examples of what a Hero can see in Looking And Opening Doors (closed doors, blocked square spaces and monsters) are repeated verbatim by the first case of this later section regarding looking down a corridor. This is immediately reinforced by the see page 15 "SEE" for clear line of sight parenthetical reference, which at least implies--if not directs--that the rule of thumb for line of sight found there is to be applied when a Hero looks into a corridor.

The second case of what a Hero can see occurs when he opens a door into a room. Placement of monsters remains constant, but this includes any monsters in the room, irrespective of line of sight. The placement of the other mentions, treasure chests and other room items, also don't depend on line of sight. This element of revealing all room contents is important for streamlining of exploration before combat. Without this place-everything-at-once mechanic, the Zargon player would have a much harder time tracking the secondary placement of furniture and monsters (previously blocked to line of sight) as Heroes and monsters change positions. Also, monsters in a newly revealed room that remained blocked from line of sight up to Zargon's turn would remain unplaced an thus couldn't be activated. This would be bad for both Zargon's tactics and veracity as well, as monsters should attack in response to an intrusion.

The disconnect between LoS-dependent placement of visible contents in corridors and everything placement of visible contents in rooms can be bridged with a minimal extention of A Good Rule Of Thumb on p. 15. (I feel this is a good place for an adjustment, as a rule of thumb already allows some interpretation in its application.) While it's desirable to set line of sight from center of the square to the center of the other square for dynamic combatants, this isn't as critical during exploration. As such, allowing a Hero that opens a door to move his point of view from anywhere within his square rather than its center can reflect moving his head along the forward facing edge of the square, the limit of his position in his square as he peers in the room. From an open doorway or corner, this affords line of sight to furniture and squares along the inner near wall(s) that would otherwise remain hidden. This opens about 6 squares along either side of the near wall into the Hero's view, explaining why the entire room is placed. The utility of seeing by line of sight is maintained; only an allowable, minor adjustment to the Good Rule of Thumb square-to-square rule need apply to the situation: During movement, a Hero's line of sight may be drawn from anywhere within the square he is on to the center of the square the target is on.

I feel it is important that the exploring Hero remain fully within his square at the moment of the placement of contents as p. 12, Hero Movement details that Heroes "move carefully along corridors and into rooms square by square." The consequences of ignoring this discrete division of movement is born out if a monster is waiting at a corner or just inside an opened door. No monster worth his salt is going to politely allow an intruding Hero to poke his head into his square to peer fully down a corridor. "NO WAY YOU GONNA PASS!" This isn't just fluff, it is predicated on the rule that a Hero and monster may only share a square in the confines of a pit.

The main character of corridors, their length, doesn't call for this peering adjustment in my opinion. Rather than needing to remember a bonus 6-square revealing range as a special peering case (found by drawing a line from the far-front corner of the square the Hero is on to the center-point of a square with a monster or piece of furniture along the blocking wall), it is wiser to default to what already has been described on p. 13, How Zargon Reacts To Hero Movement. As a Hero steps adjacent to a corner and "looks" down the perpendicular corridor, he initially only sees the corner square and one diagonal square adjacent to it; the center-points of any farther squares are all blocked by the inner corner. Only if the Hero finds the courage to move onto the corner square and enter the new corridor can he fully "look" down the corridor and reveal the rest of the squares, along with any visible contents.

I'm for following what Avalon Hill has said about placing monsters: monsters do not block line of sight when placed in a corridor. This is possible using the How Zargon Reacts To Hero Movement and a hack: place monsters from the farthest to nearest in relation to the exploring Hero. As each monster is placed, at that moment it is directly within the Hero's line of sight.