Hero Collection II: Rogue Heir of Elethorn (Oct-Dec '22)

[Kurgan]

That makes more sense.

[AmalgamAsh]

Actually, I think it's possible that this is less about limited pre-orders, and more about AH managing any pre-announcement antics, regardless of good intentions or bad on the part of the retailers.

Per the recent interview reported on in AmalgamAsh's YT Vid, AH went on the record saying that Scalpers will be disappointed by the amount of units being produced, and also said that AH wanted HQ to be accessible so this Character Pack will be a normal retail product.

Since the announcement isn't even due till Gen Con in August, it seems possible that these sites advertising release dates and pre-order dates were asked to remove these references.

It may even be part of the reason AH reached out to Ash, so they could get ahead of the rumor-mills.

This ended up being the most accurate take, in my opinion.

[FainFlynn]

I mean, AH can just post an update with details about their plans...problem solved.

[Kurgan]

I wonder what's holding them back from doing that?

[Nlinindoll]

I mean… they kind of have told us their plans. Their plans are: “Big announcements at GenCon!”

We are just impatient. Haha but if they told us everything now, then they’d have nothing to announce at GenCon and everyone at that convention and watching it online would complain, “Avalon Hill’s announcements at GenCon were lame!” (Just like the complaints about PulseCon 2021 announcements)

Their marketing department holds announcements until the time they believe can generate the most buzz.

[QorDaq]

I mean… they kind of have told us their plans. Their plans are: “Big announcements at GenCon!”

We are just impatient. Haha but if they told us everything now, then they’d have nothing to announce at GenCon and everyone at that convention and watching it online would complain, “Avalon Hill’s announcements at GenCon were lame!” (Just like the complaints about PulseCon 2021 announcements)

Their marketing department holds announcements until the time they believe can generate the most buzz.

I'd add to this that, we don't know what we don't know yet. With the uncertainty of global production and shipping right now, it makes sense for AH (or any production house), to limit unconfirmed information until they can be sure they can deliver and not open themselves up to undue ire from the fanbase if priorities, release dates, etc. change.

All we "Know" at the moment is that there are two products in the pipeline. We don't have any real (Read official) information beyond this.

I'll also point out that we can only guess as to the order of these two releases. I get the feeling that folks are expecting the Rogue "Soon" (TM), but I'd hazard it could be later next year, with Frozen Horror coming out first.

Based on what AmalgamAsh reported, these smaller expansions are meant to be palette cleansers between larger releases. If so, the Knight could have been the smaller offering between the Core/ Initial expansions released, and the Frozen Horror. If true, then the Rogue could be quite some ways out, and planned for release well before the next larger expansion (EQP, maybe?) which has not been leaked to date.

The Knight was intended to be dropped roughly a year before we assume FH is scheduled for retail towards the end of the year (I still think it could end up being Q1 2023). This could put the Rogue towards the end of 2023, and the next larger expansion towards the end of 2024--or even later.

Again, we don't know what we don't know, however, so all of that is conjecture and supposition.

Point being, I suppose, is that while AH would surely like to have "Big News" for Gen Con, and if there is a longer production schedule for future releases, they may have thought August 2022 was in fact giving the community information well ahead of new HQ offerings hitting the market. But presumably within a timeframe they feel comfortable with.

What I am actually a bit "Concerned" about, is that we as a community may have pretty big expectations about not only availability (release dates), but also number of planned products.

I hope that Gen Con is a genuinely big info dump, with all kinds of great details about what we think we know now, as well as things coming down the pipe in the future. But based on Hasbro to date, their "Big News" has tended to not be so big after all, and has left us scratching our heads, while asking, "Is that really it?"

I hope I'm wrong, but if we already basically know everything planned for the nearish future, saying much before August would be seriously underwhelming, even by Hasbro standards. For HQ announcements to date anyway, as we all know from our in-boxes, other properties are updated and teased regularly.

Which makes sense, I'd be surprised if any one of their other lines doesn't seriously outsell HQ, and would do so even if we all joined a monthly subscription for new HQ releases. Which let's be honest, we'd all totally do... For a while.

In short, Nlinindoll advises wisely when they counsel patience. I'd add we need to also manage our expectations about how much new HQ content will hit the market, and when.

[AmalgamAsh]

This post is 100% quotable. It's almost video worthy in and of itself.

I think it is safe for us and other spheres of communities surrounding HQ to ease up, disregard current and past releases as standard convention as applicable, and allow AH to set anew our expectations with any and all release cadence using what they release in the coming months / quarters. Whatever those releases are, whatever leaky info we observe between official announcements, I have faith that those standards will maintain a new consistency and let us breathe a bit knowing we will all be able to obtain what they put out.

[Kurgan]

Should I have saved this for the next "RantCast"? Maybe, but read on if you dare...

First of all, I'm on the side of the fans, because I am one. I'm with AA, and everybody here first and foremost BEFORE I'm with any corporation, even one as illustrious as Avalon Hill. If it comes down to whom I would give the benefit of the doubt or "trust" to understand Heroquest, it would be the fans who have played and supported it these many years. That doesn't mean of course I agree with everything any random fan thinks. Given the many debates and discussions we've had here it should be apparent that anyone who could claim to speak for the entire community would have a hard job convincing me of that (and I know there are people out there who see my preferences and will say their ways are way better, each to their own). But on certain things I think we can agree, such as that HeroQuest isn't just a thing of the past, that it could be a thing of the future, and something that we wouldn't mind more people discovering and becoming a part of just as we did once upon a time. They may come up with house rules we don't use ourselves or paint jobs we don't care for, but they'd have just as much a right to be called "fans" even if their fandom started this year instead of three decades ago.

I disagree that any of us here are complaining just to complain and being impatient fans (though we are of course anticipating more info). Pulsecon was basically just a filler message telling us to chill out and wait, wasn't it? We had to piece together that they'd put an obvious Frozen Horror remake box in the background while throwing out some Arnold Schwarzenegger as Mr. Freeze worthy winter puns. Yes, they told us that legacy stuff would be remade and original stuff would be added to the brand. But all that for a whole convention? We wanted to see a demo, an outline, something. We got tons of emails over the last two years about other products, but not all of us cared that much about GI Joe, Transformers and Star Wars. We signed up for and invested in HEROQUEST and that's why we tuned in. In 1992, sure, the internet was a new thing for most of us, so we didn't expect to have our questions answered in a timely manner about an anticipated product. But this isn't 1992.

Sure, a few people I could name have expressed a lot of angst about what COULD happen that hasn't happened yet. While these could be called "Chicken Littles" at the same time I see their point as well (and they were much more justified in what they were saying prior to the retail releases becoming available). MANY nostalgic franchises that have been rebooted have had problems, growing pains or outright missteps that have divided their fanbases or even alienated them altogether, some to the point where you could say the enthusiasm within them has died for many fans who otherwise would be enthusiastic supporters. The whole point is to make money but this seems like a poor strategy, so companies who want to attempt it should take note. Companies want to minimize risk while maximizing rewards, and the whole reason to revive a known success is to help minimize that, but if it is mishandled, they can do further damage to their profit margin over time. There is always a risk with bringing back any beloved IP. It's not an easy task and if you put any one of us in charge of it, there's no guarantee we'd all come up with the one winning solution to make it a lasting success worthy of the source material. If HeroQuest is mishandled and dies, there will surely be those at the top who will simply blame "the fans" or the IP itself and move on to more reliable means of profit, without admitting their own part in it. As fans then we have an obligation not to somehow present a forced united front of criticism, but highlight those messages that show the good and the bad about the product and help set expectations. If it seems like a divide between "fans" who hate everything and are never satisfied and "fans" who love everything and are loyal no matter what, well neither of those types of "fans" need to be catered to, because their "vote" is already set in stone. But many fans do have legit criticisms, and if anyone would listen, it should be those at AH who are actual gamers, not just artists, who have some pull with the company that writes their checks and approves their decisions.

A major mistake a company could make with their IP is to assume they don't need to listen to fan feedback, and don't need to do any research into what the fans will pay for. Another would be to misjudge their audience (for example, to assume that all their audience are regular participants on Twitter, or all of them are pledgers on HasbroPulse). Another would be to assume that fans are "toxic" and need to be re-educated and their beloved IP changed into something different to guide them towards some new ideology or trendy political position. Another would be to sow dissension in the ranks of fans, to try to pit them against each other over loyalty to the brand name. Having seen stuff like this happen to other popular franchises, it's only natural that many would rightly ponder whether these risks and temptations might affect our beloved franchise. Perhaps that HeroQuest is "small" and "niche" compared to some of the others (like Star Wars or Transformers) works in its favor. They have less research to do to find out what the existing fanbase wants and what attracted them in the first place (which may attract new customers as well). The HeroQuest fandom is not exactly the same as the D&D fandom, or the GI Joe fandom or the Power Rangers fandom. So they can't simply expect to slap the brand name on any old thing and reap the rewards of money and loyalty. We as fans don't have another thirty years of quality releases guaranteed to us. I'm sure there is plenty of fear and uncertainty in their industry these days, but pandemic or not, economic problems or not, sure it doesn't take much to do more than just send out two relevant emails a year and promise a spot on an annual convention that may or may not actually say anything of substance other than what amounts to "trust, wait and see."

Let me guess, we're going to need to do another fan unboxing of the Frozen Horror too, right?

Whenever I'm presented with a "Company policy vs. fans" contest, I am AUTOMATICALLY going to take the side of the fans as my starting point. That doesn't mean every single thing a fan says online is going to have my back, but I'm starting there. Hasbro has been tight lipped, secretive, and very slow to address the fans. Regardless of their real reasons for doing it, it comes across that we're treated as an afterthought, a bargain bin niche product that doesn't deserve their full attention. Take that how you will. In the age of social media and instant communication, us asking a company for more than we would have expected of them when we were kids in the 1990s, is not unreasonable. They're free to respond to that how they will but we're also free to express dissatisfaction.

Even the venerable Stephen Baker, is not above criticism. I can use my example of George Lucas and Star Wars. Nobody can deny that fans owe him a debt of gratitude, but he's not infallible, nor is he responsible for everything good (he had lots of help). When he drops the ball and goofs up, I won't hide behind the excuse that he "started it" so therefore he can't be doubted or questioned. Rogar's Hall I think was a failure in that it wasn't a good "starter quest" for new players. I think perhaps he was going with the old video game mentality wherein a person is supposed to lose and lose until they memorize it. But this goes against the game rules which state that Zargon is supposed to re-arrange the quest when you fail. Plus, how many young players are going to be "toughened up" by a quest that is designed to end in virtually guaranteed failure if played straight? He didn't learn the lesson of "the Trial." But then the European version was different from the North American. Baker himself may not have had much to do with the international localization that came a year after his collaborative creation. He also may have forgotten the subtle nuances between them that would make a difficult EU quest into a near-impossible one under the US rules. Tough veteran players who never give up probably didn't care, but then the quest wasn't made for them, was it? So I didn't assume that Prophecy of Telor was going to be a smashing success after Rogar's Hall. I still have yet to play it and an in-depth analysis shows many typos and mistakes in the book (not as many or as serious as the oversights found in the other Mythic exclusives, but one can't call it "perfect"), even though the content shows the promise of a truly GREAT expansions quest series worthy of the HeroQuest legacy. So credit where credit is due but you see even there I don't automatically assume he can do no wrong and we fans should just shut up and give them our money. I was reluctant to support the Pledge until the 11th hour, until I had sufficient information to convince me it was right. Looking back there was no good reason for me to have supported it, other than token support, since the retail version would have given me 97% of what I wanted. I certainly didn't want to support some scalper selling me that one quest book for an inflated price.

The biggest thing that remake HeroQuest has going for it right now is that it changes so very little of the core game we remember (this is less true for those who grew up with the EU or Japanese editions, they will have to rely on the easy moddability of the game to satisfy their nostalgia), which is not a given when a nostalgic IP is rebooted by a major corporation. It was a good thing they did taking it in this direction vs. simply re-imagining the game with little but the name to tie it back to the original. They were right to bring Stephen Baker back on board even though in more of a cameo role this time. They listened to some criticisms from the fan community. Imagine if we had gotten all gray figures and furniture first time around, or the original version of the Druid model. Yes, they inexplicably changed the dice design around, but in general they followed the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality with this one, a rare thing with rebooted IPs. But many fans were fearful they wouldn't, and those fears were well founded based on past precedent of so many other things in recent years. I didn't have to pledge. I didn't "need" this. I already had a perfectly serviceable classic set as did several of my family members and friends. I chose to support it, because it symbolized a step in the right direction. But that doesn't mean I had some doubts and trepidations about the future of it. Many told me, with full confidence that we would NEVER see HeroQuest again on store shelves after the pledges were fulfilled. That would go against long-standing HasbroPulse tradition! I'm glad they were wrong.

The people who already "trust" the company to release quality products that we will love that will be worth the wait, etc. no further effort is needed on their part. These folks are satisfied and happy, nothing needs to be done for them. If anything, they're annoyed when everyone else isn't content and quiet like they are.

For the rest, asking for more info even with a slightly impatient tone, is understandable. How can they expect us to get excited about something if they won't say anything about it? Do they honestly think that they're santa claus and their audience are entirely made up of little children? Hopefully not, because their primary audience for HeroQuest are adults (in their 40's or older) who want to introduce their kids to the game they were nostalgic about from their youth, and teens and adults with families who MIGHT be interested in doing the same, but already are having their attention and money competed with by other similar products.

Hasbro still gets paid whether you buy D&D or HeroQuest or something else from their catalog, but if they already spent their gaming budget on those other things, why would they still care about HeroQuest? Hasbro has millions to spend on marketing and knowing their audience.

I'm waiting to see that consistency. They've scored a major victory with the Retail release last December. What's next? Maybe people thought I was being hyperbolic when I said the Frozen Horror flopping could potentially sink the new franchise. Maybe it wouldn't utterly destroy it, but a failure on that part would certainly cause Hasbro to re-evaluate the IP and affect future releases, so for that reason alone we should care. This small hero release is less important in that sense but it is another milestone on the way that will either increase or decrease confidence in their intended fanbase.

Collectors and diehards whose loyalty is unshakable won't be affected no matter what happens. Not saying anyone who has the mentality is bad (on the contrary I have respect for those people even as we disagree on this point), just saying not everyone is in that position or can easily adopt it. Wealthy, successful companies make mistakes all the time. I can say I trust some of the people within AH and want to please the fans and release quality products worthy of the legacy of the product all day long, but unless Hasbro gives them the resources and freedom to accomplish this, it's just wishful thinking.

I could play HeroQuest without any company support for three decades, and I can play it for another three decades without it, but for the sake of the new fans and those who didn't hang onto their classic packages (or can't afford the dwindling quantities of those now) I hope they build that trust and reputation by reaching out to those potential customers.



So back to this small pack... it's a small insignificant addition to the whole that probably few will actually use in their quests. But like everything else they put out, as this small, niche, bargain bin (or otherwise) product to a small dedicated fanbase, it matters and it will be scrutinized in how they handle it.

I trust AA, but not everyone got to have a conversation with Avalon Hill on the phone. Not everyone was given such a direct and comforting message that everything is going to be all right and the mistakes of the past will not be repeated. I trust a fan like him but I don't necessarily trust a company to follow through until I can see proof of that. So how they handle this release vs. the Guardian Knights matters a lot. Now you could say the Frozen Horror matters a lot more, but consider the future of the franchise. Do you want more hero collections? If so, then surely you would want this to be handled well, so as many fans can get it as possible. You'd want every word of that phone interview to be accurate and come to pass. You'd want every bit of those assurances to apply to future releases as well. I swore off supporting exclusive limited releases after the GK debacle, even though they promised it wouldn't happen quite like that again.

I WANT those loyal fans who are diehards who have full faith in the companies to deliver to be able to tell me "I told you so... you worried for nothing!" I want that, so here's hoping you get your opportunity in 3-5 months time. If the "leak" hadn't happened, would we even be having this conversation? I would much rather they had made an official announcement with a Q&A or FAQ about their future plans. They could do that and still do all their hands on stuff at GenCon. It seems they've relied so heavily on viral marketing and guerrilla tactics to bring us this information (or relying on sleuthing fans to do it). It's a rather strange, but probably cost saving way to present this info. If HeroQuest is a rousing success then I guess 20 years from now when it's all out in the open nobody will care, but for now they're asking us to care, to budget out money to support them based on little more than trust (which must be built). Imagine how many more potential buyers they aren't reaching just because they aren't hanging out on fan pages like this one or refreshing Twitter every week to see whether "Zargon" will tell a silly joke or actually confirm some info about an upcoming release? This is HeroQuest so "normies" and "casuals" should be their target audience after the nostalgic legacy fanbase (which they also can't justly ignore).

I can't judge this Hero Collection adequately until we can see what it says on those cards. The miniatures are fine, but we're not just paying for the miniatures, but the whole package. To me though I am much more interested in what they'll do with these quest packs. When the dust settles, more people will be interested in those than these little small packs, even if they flood store shelves with them (as they should). And hey, now we can say, if nothing else (if the Mage of the Mirror never gets remade), now the general public will get another opportunity to purchase an official "male Elf" for their game system!

[Kurgan]

Twitter's "Zargon" (hasbro account who may or may not be Doug Hopkins) announced on Jun 7 that he was traveling to the northern regions and would return in a few weeks. So should we expect radio silence from Hasbro/AH until August 3rd?

We should send reporters to GenCon. For me it would be a rather tall order, since it's a 7 hour drive each way and although tickets to individual sessions are cheap (or even free), press badges are not. I'd be happy to promote the reports others are sending, as I'll be working during portions of the convention anyway (don't see myself being able to take extra time off for it). So anyone in the Indianapolis area want to volunteer? Worst case scenario we'll have to wait till then unless more "leaks" happen.

I can just imagine though they'll show us the miniatures, but what we really need to know are the contents of that quest book and what the cards actually say, to get an idea of what gameplay mechanics are there. As I've been strongly reminded before on these very forums, it's not enough that we can always "fix" the product later with our own homebrew, the release product ought to make sense and not be broken on release.

[QorDaq]

For clarity; my post was not intended to chastise anyone for complaining for the sake of complaining, or anything like it. If my tone implied such it was not intended. The larger point was simply to point out that we don't control the information flow from AH, and what we want does not necessarily translate into what we will get. And even that list of wants and preferences likely does not apply across the "Whole Community" anyway.

We also don't have any way of knowing (so far anyway), why AH and Hasbro have been as quiet as they have been. We can guess, but we won't know until (if) they were to tell us for some reason.

I also do not believe that we shouldn't ask for what we want. Rarely does anything of value come from complacently assuming someone "Else" has our best interests at heart. Nor do I find it inappropriate to express concerns over how something is being managed, if we care about that thing, it's worth making the point when we have those concerns.

I will however, reiterate that we simply don't know what we don't know.

How did HQ really come back? What battles were fought before we even heard about the Pulse campaign? How long did this process take? How much freedom do the HQ devs have to influence the larger company policies? How much agency does the dev team have to pressure for a pivot when a strategy doesn't pan out? How fragile is the future of the IP? What NDAs are in place? Etc.

Most of that we'll probably never know. Doesn't mean we shouldn't ask, just that I don't think it's within our control as a community.

I also agree entirely that how these early projects are managed by the powers that be, matter. The future of the IP in the near-ish term may depend on it, and growing the community by good design decisions leading to positive gaming experiences is important. I don't think that-that is in question.

I also find it worth mentioning, that blind faith in AH to provide the most optimum outcome, without the benefit of seeing successful examples of what they can deliver, is ill-advised.

I do, however, feel that we won't have those answers until we do. One way or another. And it could take some time to see where this goes.

I find it encouraging that AH released what appeared to be a fairly well presented apology to the community, about how the Guardian Knight fiasco went down. Even more so if the promises made to do better going forward are proven. Time will tell, but I think (speaking strictly for myself, not the whole community), that it's okay to give them room and time to prove themselves. I don't see that as being an apologist for AH, or blindly giving them my faith that everything going forward will make me (or anyone) happy. Just that I'm willing to wait and see.

Regardless, I genuinely hope that my comments will be taken in the light that they are intended; which is to share my thoughts and perspectives, and not to undermine anyone else's views on HQ, AH, the larger community (whom I absolutely do not claim to speak for), or what have you.

------------------

As to the Rogue, in an effort to step back and return to the actual topic at hand before my potential derailment;

The promise of the Rogue (to me), is that there could be unexpected new content added to the IP going forward. I am very curious to see those cards, and it's one of the things I have hopes will be revealed at GenCon.

I assume that this expansion, like the Knight before it, is an experiment, as much as anything, to see how the community responds to new retail releases. New Heroes are a cool addition in my opinion, despite the reception of any particular innovation by any particular fan.

I'd also like to see new enemies. As others have also mentioned (and I have previously as well), I'd like to see other types of small expansions too. Especially card packs, tile packs, encounter packs, etc. which could expand the idea for new fans discovering HQ today or into the future, that they can make the game their own by creating unique Quests, Campaigns, or whole worlds using the game as a tool set.

The Rogue could be a good start. We'll see.

Also, initially I didn't much like the look of the minis, but they are actually growing on me.