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Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby wallydubbs » Wednesday December 7th, 2022 4:33pm

Well I'm pretty sure the Bracers are metal too, but isn't this the reason they made it more expensive then chainmail? It allows all the other non-heavey-armor-wearing-heroes an extra defense dice? They'll also have more gold to save up since they can't spend it on a helmet.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby HispaZargon » Wednesday December 7th, 2022 4:37pm

As Zargon official twitter account already confirmed too, Chain Mail may not be combined with the Bracers, but Bracers may be used by the Wizard, so I guess that's the main reason why they are 50 gold coins more expensive than Chain Mail.

Additionally, if Bracers may be used by the Wizard, I think we can be 99% confident about thinking that Bracers are not made of metal.

However, if we check the cost difference between Helmet and Shield (25 gold coins), maybe we can now justify why such difference exist. One is made of metal (Helmet) and the other not (Shield), which means the Helmet may be used by less hereoes than the Shield, the reason why we can consider the Helmet is 25 gold coins cheaper.

Then, according to all herein above, maybe we could vaguely assume that 25 gold coins is the cost increment of an armour non made of metal, and 25 gold coins the cost increment of an armour that may be used by the Wizard... which again fits with the 50 gold coins difference between Bracers and Chain Mail. Just especulation of course, but probably a useful rule for homebrew armories design...


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby manaknight14 » Wednesday December 7th, 2022 11:05pm

wallydubbs wrote:Well I'm pretty sure the Bracers are metal too, but isn't this the reason they made it more expensive then chainmail? It allows all the other non-heavey-armor-wearing-heroes an extra defense dice? They'll also have more gold to save up since they can't spend it on a helmet.

The equipment card for the 2021 edition bracers definitely refers to them as being made of hardened leather.

HispaZargon wrote:As Zargon official twitter account already confirmed too, Chain Mail may not be combined with the Bracers, but Bracers may be used by the Wizard, so I guess that's the main reason why they are 50 gold coins more expensive than Chain Mail.

Additionally, if Bracers may be used by the Wizard, I think we can be 99% confident about thinking that Bracers are not made of metal.

However, if we check the cost difference between Helmet and Shield (25 gold coins), maybe we can now justify why such difference exist. One is made of metal (Helmet) and the other not (Shield), which means the Helmet may be used by less hereoes than the Shield, the reason why we can consider the Helmet is 25 gold coins cheaper.

Then, according to all herein above, maybe we could vaguely assume that 25 gold coins is the cost increment of an armour non made of metal, and 25 gold coins the cost increment of an armour that may be used by the Wizard... which again fits with the 50 gold coins difference between Bracers and Chain Mail. Just especulation of course, but probably a useful rule for homebrew armories design...

The shield vs. helmet value extrapolation doesn't exactly hold though, because metal vs. non-metal isn't the only difference between those two. The shield has the drawback of occupying a hand and preventing the use of two-handed weapons. Sounds like the value of non-metal over metal would be +50, while the one-hand penalty would be worth -25. The fact that the wizard can use an item wouldn't imply any direct value that isn't captured by the non-metal quality. All the official heroes that can't wear metal armor (or are penalized for it) have the same restriction for the shield, with the sole exception of the druid.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby manaknight14 » Wednesday December 7th, 2022 11:17pm

Oh wait a minute, I messed up my logic. The wizard/warlock/bard/rogue not being able to use the shield means the bracers do have value beyond just being non-metal. Although in that sense, the primary value of the shield over the helmet is just that it can't be destroyed by a Rust spell. But under rules as written, metal "armor" like chain mail and plate mail can't be hit by Rust anyway, so the only added value of the bracers is the "approved for wizards" attribute....
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby HispaZargon » Wednesday December 7th, 2022 11:20pm

manaknight14 wrote:The shield vs. helmet value extrapolation doesn't exactly hold though, because metal vs. non-metal isn't the only difference between those two. The shield has the drawback of occupying a hand and preventing the use of two-handed weapons. Sounds like the value of non-metal over metal would be +50, while the one-hand penalty would be worth -25. The fact that the wizard can use an item wouldn't imply any direct value that isn't captured by the non-metal quality. All the official heroes that can't wear metal armor (or are penalized for it) have the same restriction for the shield, with the sole exception of the druid.

I understand your point of view, of course the Shield adds also the penalty of requiring one of the hands of the Hero, I was just thinking on a general criteria which could also cover the Druid and any other future character in a similar situation, and also trying to cover the Rust spell effects.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » Thursday December 8th, 2022 10:10pm

Officially the only two handed weapons (can't be combined with Shield) in the Remake edition are the Staff and Battle Axe.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby wallydubbs » Friday December 9th, 2022 11:59am

I find the Orc Bard to be a comedy hero that doesn't really fit with the overall tone of the game. But this hero isn't entirely useless, though. His spells are serving to other players, just not himself, which isn't bad: you have another sleep spell, a multi-man healing spell and a reoccurring attack boost, not as strong as Courage but it helps.

As annoying as the Rapier is, 2 attack dice with the added strength of diagonal is actually quite effective as a starting weapon.
However the Bard needs stronger armor wearing heroes to be helpful. If accompanying the Druid, Wizard and Warlock the Bard is actually the muscle of the group and his spells aren't as useful. Regaining Inspiring Tale will happen more often as his allies gain defense dice.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but he's not entirely disqualified from wearing armor, he merely loses that "light footed" defense dice. Or am I misunderstanding the mechanics of his power?
Like the Druid, it doesn't say anything about him not being able to carry bigger weapons either. So I suppose he can wield a battle axe once all saved up, can't use a shield with that anyway.

My only issue with this character is the sheer silliness of it. No sir! Toss a coin to your Witcher.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » Sunday November 5th, 2023 3:30pm

Okay I have changed my mind on this (AGAIN). Thanks seekhashem.

Bard can freely use metal armor (always could) but he gets a bonus if he doesn't (Druid and Rogue can't wear it at all, Monk refuses to, effectively Wizard/Warlock cannot despite never choosing those words).

Helmet is metal, so he shouldn't wear it for the bonus.
Shield is not part of the bonus.

So Bard's base defense is 2, NOT 3 (IF he wears the non-metal armor and doesn't hold a shield).

So when he ADDS bracers he gets 2 extra rather than just 1 (and he loses the extra one as soon as he puts on a helmet, adds a shield or "metal" armor meaning chainmail or plate including magical variants).

Now the immediate criticism is... what benefit is this really? Unless he finds bracers he's going to spend more gold for less benefit it seems.

Base defense (2) + Bracers (1 + 1 bonus) = 4 defend. but he has to spend 550 gold (remake price of Bracers) to get this.

Base defense (2) + Helmet (1) + Shield (1) = 4 defend, but he spends only half of the above (275 gold). Yes, the Shield restricts staff (yes, his rapier is "better" than a staff, though it can be destroyed by the very rare Rust spell while the Staff can only be destroyed by the even rarer encounter with "Twist Wood" being reflected back; unknown how either will fare against the stronger "Rust" from Wizards of Morcar when that is finally remade someday). It also restricts Battle Axe.

Chainmail only costs 50 gold LESS than Bracers. Bracers are expensive but they are bought by the Wizard because it's the only purchasable armor he can wear (he finds the Wizard's Cloak or the Phoenix Cloak, both artifacts, later).

Back before we "knew" that the Helmet was metal, it seemed simpler. By buying bracers instead of chainmail, but retaining the helmet, the Bard saved 50 gold and got his 5 dice (helmet + bracers vs. helmet + chainmail). I don't think it's a total loss, the player just has to decide which makes the most sense for his situation or makes use of what he finds.
Last edited by Kurgan on Monday November 6th, 2023 7:35pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby wallydubbs » Monday November 6th, 2023 11:30am

I think you mean Chainmail is 50 gold less then Bracers.

Just the same, the Bard isn't restricted from wearing metal armor or carrying shields, he's just encouraged not to due to his extra defence bonus.
It's much like the Monk's attack bonus, why buy a shot sword if you're just as powerful or can use your techniques without it? The monk definitely has greater incentives to go unarmed. This extra defence die for the Bard could easily be used as a stepping stone for building up the character. You can settle with Bracers to give him 4 DD overall, and later on, after Keller's Keep, buy a helmet and a shield for that additional defence dice... Unless you choose to give him a Battle Axe... Which I think would be weird for a Bard.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » Monday November 6th, 2023 7:14pm

The bracers in the original EU edition were implied to be magic (check out the illustration... they're basically Wonder Woman's magic bracelets so probably meant to be metal; the Cloak of Protection is basically magic as well, and both are only for the Wizard). But yeah, they're not metal this time, you're thinking of the Elven Bracers (which are an artifact that grants the Elf a boost in max BP and MP, not actually armor).

I haven't verified it all myself but I've been told that the Warhammer lore at the time was that Wizards couldn't wield metal things unless they were magical metal (this doesn't answer how they can use daggers in HeroQuest, but then the dagger didn't exist until the NA edition... same with the "magical throwing dagger"). The Wizard in the EU editions got to use Borin's Armor (magic metal), Spirit Blade & Orc's Bane (both magic metal, the latter clearly inspired by Ocrist and Glamdring from the Tolkien's middle earth books).


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