Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

[Kurgan]

The game system I grew up with (NA) describes the Orcs (as well as others) as if they are loyal followers of Chaos not just nasty guys in their own right. But who says a rogue Orc can't just want to be the big boss (we've seen Orc generals and sorcerers before) and be motivated by greed? (Gold can get you a lot of things after all)

Ogres (maybe Trolls too, I'm less familiar with their treatment in Heroquest OR Warhammer fantasy...) do like to eat stuff, so love of battle isn't the only thing that motivates them. And despite that backstory laid out in ATOH we never actually see any official Ogre mercenaries (cue us homebrewers).

Maybe they deserted, maybe they lost their captain and went awhol. Maybe they just wanted more or wanted to be the boss, or didn't fit in for whatever reason.

Or maybe there were patches of monsters that simply weren't drafted into Zargon's armies? There could be all kinds of reasons. I like the idea of some guys that maybe you can't quite trust but want to see Zargon lose and want to get some of the booty too.

Fun stuff. As a one off or series, playing as the bad guys could be fun. Having temporary monster mercs on your side happens in the official quest packs at times too. Sure, usually it takes the form of magical influence (you takeover the evil sorcerer's mooks disrupting his power, or the good guys were contaminated by evil magic and then the spell wore off so they help you), but still, it's not unprecedented.

So whether you treat them as NPCs like Sir Ragnar or they're fully fledged "heroes" it can be done and has precedent in the officially recognized works (more so in the EU published quests and NA expansions, to be fair).

[Daedalus]

But maybe the Orcs who aren't deemed fit for fighting aren't just summarily slaughtered or used for target practice, but given other roles in the war effort? Go ahead, tell me what Warhammer says about it. I'm just using my imagination here.

. . . No "cowboy" Orcs per se, but pirates, bandits, and mercenaries are abound. Pretty much any vocation where you rule by strength and intimidation, you can find a Orc "freebooting" in it. I wouldn't exactly use these terms to describe Bards, unless you are talking about Skalds. There are enough primitive tribes of Orcs (even more primitive than normal Orc standards) that you can get Orc Barbarian clans, with Skalds and Shaman, so either of these could be used to "fix" the Orc Bard and remain consistent to Warhammer and HQ Lore...

An Orc Skald sounds like a waaay better fit for HQ canon. Would the spells and armor work as presented for the Orc Bard, or are changes desirable? Is there a starting weapon that presents itself?

[Kurgan]

Rapier makes me think of a pirate cutlass... I was going to say el kabong! with the mandolin, but what say ye?

[Cael Darkhollow]

Ogres (maybe Trolls too, I'm less familiar with their treatment in Heroquest OR Warhammer fantasy...) do like to eat stuff, so love of battle isn't the only thing that motivates them. And despite that backstory laid out in ATOH we never actually see any official Ogre mercenaries (cue us homebrewers).

Ogre mercs are definitely a thing in Warhammer. They will fight for whomever pays the most including the Empire. Early in Warhammer history they were often included as a choice for allies of the Empire or other good aligned races such as elves or dwarves. Ogre mercenaries working for orcs, goblins or the good guys were the only ogres in the game besides Chaos Ogres that are corrupted mutants always on the side of Chaos. Later ogres were listed in the dogs of war supplement as mercs for hire. Later after the Ogre Horde army book came out, they became an army in their own right fighting anyone for their own goals. We learned about their homelands far to the East over the World's Edge Mountains across the plains of desolation in the mountains of mourn. (they have a Mongolian/Hun horde vibe as a real world equivalent)
Trolls are barely sentient monsters who eat literally anything, too stupid to be mercs or allies, but can be goaded into battle by force or promised food usually by goblin handlers. All good races see them as evil monsters to be destroyed not possible for trolls to align with good troops. They can be included by evil armies as a captive monster only.

Orc musicians for combat units are the closest thing to an orc skald that exists in Warhammer. Usually they are banging a hide drum with a bone or blaring on a horn likely torn from some slain beast. (most units in Warhammer have a unit command option that includes a musician, a standard bearer and a champion, hero or captain.) Musical composition or singing is beyond them beyond battle chants, marching beats etc. Orc music is decidedly more primitive and bellicose compared to ballads, dirges, poems or lais of a true bard or skald.

[Davane]

But maybe the Orcs who aren't deemed fit for fighting aren't just summarily slaughtered or used for target practice, but given other roles in the war effort? Go ahead, tell me what Warhammer says about it. I'm just using my imagination here.

. . . No "cowboy" Orcs per se, but pirates, bandits, and mercenaries are abound. Pretty much any vocation where you rule by strength and intimidation, you can find a Orc "freebooting" in it. I wouldn't exactly use these terms to describe Bards, unless you are talking about Skalds. There are enough primitive tribes of Orcs (even more primitive than normal Orc standards) that you can get Orc Barbarian clans, with Skalds and Shaman, so either of these could be used to "fix" the Orc Bard and remain consistent to Warhammer and HQ Lore...

An Orc Skald sounds like a waaay better fit for HQ canon. Would the spells and armor work as presented for the Orc Bard, or are changes desirable? Is there a starting weapon that presents itself?

With some renaming, you could get a workable Orc Pirate using the current effects.

Change the starting weapon from Rapier to Sabre, Scimitar, or Cutlass - these are still long blades and whilst they can seem simple to use (pretty much like a funky machette), their curves give them a deceptive amount of agility too for that diagonal attack. Interestingly, a Sabre is another common fencing weapon because of this.

The bonus defence die when not wearing metal armour makes sense (not metal armour on board a ship unless you are asking to drown), and many pirates were called swashbucklers because they didn't carry anything bigger than a hand buckler in their off-hand, which they would wield much like an off-hand parrying weapon.

As for the spells, change Lullaby to Intimidating Stare (Dread Stare?), keep Inspiring Tale (or change it to Bawdy Song?), and you could use use something creative like "Grog for the Crew!" to replace Healing Song.

For a skald, things are a little trickier - a Skald doesn't typically have any particularly associated weapons, but since Barbarians use Longswords, any weapon above could work, or just give them the Shortsword (and the ability to attack diagonally using any single-handed weapon if this aspect is important to you.)

The starting ability makes some sense, but since Barbarians can wear chainmail or platemail and don't get any bonus defence if they don't, you might wonder why the Skald should, unless you argue that they wear tribal firs with defensive magic in them.

You could probably get away with the Inspiring Song (Battle Chant?) and Healing Song as is, but Lullaby becomes a bit harder without a rename of some kind (Warcry?).

Whether Skald or Pirate, there's no way that an Orc should have less Body Points than an Elf. Therefore, for either class, I'd recommend giving them +1 BP for a total of 6 Body Points at least. For the Pirate, you might even consider going for 7 BP, 3 MP so they can match the Dwarf.

[Davane]

Ogres (maybe Trolls too, I'm less familiar with their treatment in Heroquest OR Warhammer fantasy...) do like to eat stuff, so love of battle isn't the only thing that motivates them. And despite that backstory laid out in ATOH we never actually see any official Ogre mercenaries (cue us homebrewers).

Ogre mercs are definitely a thing in Warhammer. They will fight for whomever pays the most including the Empire. Early in Warhammer history they were often included as a choice for allies of the Empire or other good aligned races such as elves or dwarves. Ogre mercenaries working for orcs, goblins or the good guys were the only ogres in the game besides Chaos Ogres that are corrupted mutants always on the side of Chaos. Later ogres were listed in the dogs of war supplement as mercs for hire. Later after the Ogre Horde army book came out, they became an army in their own right fighting anyone for their own goals. We learned about their homelands far to the East over the World's Edge Mountains across the plains of desolation in the mountains of mourn. (they have a Mongolian/Hun horde vibe as a real world equivalent)
Trolls are barely sentient monsters who eat literally anything, too stupid to be mercs or allies, but can be goaded into battle by force or promised food usually by goblin handlers. All good races see them as evil monsters to be destroyed not possible for trolls to align with good troops. They can be included by evil armies as a captive monster only.

Orc musicians for combat units are the closest thing to an orc skald that exists in Warhammer. Usually they are banging a hide drum with a bone or blaring on a horn likely torn from some slain beast. (most units in Warhammer have a unit command option that includes a musician, a standard bearer and a champion, hero or captain.) Musical composition or singing is beyond them beyond battle chants, marching beats etc. Orc music is decidedly more primitive and bellicose compared to ballads, dirges, poems or lais of a true bard or skald.

Don't forget the ever popular Ogre Mercenary Warrior for WHQ! They were quite fun to play...

Most war music is battle chants and marching beats - there's generally very little time to compose a rousing epic ON the battlefield, and unlike most Barbarian tribes, the Orcs are typically always on the battlefield mentally, even if it's just fighting other Orcs. Orcs both fight challenges and duels with each other over the slightest things, and will occasionally spar with each other in tests of strength and war. The hardest thing for an Orc is to remember that they are not necessarily supposed to KILL who they are fighting with outside of battle, so more than a few inter-tribe deaths occur just because Orcs are Orcs.

An Orc Skald would be almost as tough as any Orc, but maybe be valued for being able to rouse other Orcs. Some may be apprentices to Orc Shamans, or simply have some sort of inbuilt talent to harness the power of the WAAAGH! They probably won't be able to recite the Epics of Gilgamesh, but would be handy when you need a killer bass line as the fighting starts. In today's culture, Orc Skalds would probably be gangster rappers, beatboxers, heavy metal drummers, or those that immediately start with the Imperial Theme whenever the big boss enters the camp...

[Daedalus]

An Orc Skald sounds like a waaay better fit for HQ canon. Would the spells and armor work as presented for the Orc Bard, or are changes desirable? Is there a starting weapon that presents itself?

With some renaming, you could get a workable Orc Pirate using the current effects.. . .

. . . As for the spells, change Lullaby to Intimidating Stare (Dread Stare?), keep Inspiring Tale (or change it to Bawdy Song?), and you could use use something creative like "Grog for the Crew!" to replace Healing Song.. . .

I like those thematically appropriate Spell names, particularly Grog for the Crew!

. . . You could probably get away with the Inspiring Song (Battle Chant?) and Healing Song as is, but Lullaby becomes a bit harder without a rename of some kind (Warcry?).. . .

Rename Lullaby as Waaaah! Or put it in the description. (Too GW?)

Lots of useful suggestions for a continuity-conscious Orc.

[j_dean80]

The easiest way to change the character is to just make it a normal Bard. The Hero card says “Bard” not “Orc Bard”. Just stick a different picture on the Hero card and spell backs and you’re good to go.

[Davane]

"Waaagh!" is actually GW product identity, believe it or not. Hence, "Warcry," which will no doubt have players crying "Waaagh!" every time it's played!

Yes, I know that the Orc Bard just says Bard, which just gives further proof to just how much making them an Orc is a pointless SJW stunt. The Bard is a variant Elf, but the Elf was already taken, so they needed a new race, and having no clue of HQ, and jumping on the "Orcs are Heroes too" zeitgeist, they chose an Orc. They couldn't even be bothered to make a proper Orc Hero, instead giving us some D&D tosh and calling it a day...

[dungeonsandataraxia]

Here's a big reason why it's dumb as hell and makes me worry about the whole enterprise.

They are obviously ignorant of the original game and are just like "we'll do DnD 5e stuff" because that's the only thing they know. If you're going to make a character for heroquest, you go the DnD Basic/Expert route. You make it generic. Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic User, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling. Then it is up to the player to bring more "character" to the character (if they even want to).

You can't go the "here's pregenerated character that we obviously put together by looking at 5e options / philosophy" because heroquest was not made with all that *lemony goodness* in mind. It's basic dungeon crawl. Why make such a pigeonholed "oh so unique and interesting" character? You go generic and then allow the player to fiddle with it as they see fit. IF there were new heroes it should have been like: Cleric, Thief, Halfling. There. Now sketch your ideas over that basic template.

Instead, they went with the modern approach (which I admittedly don't care for) and thus if they're going to shoehorn these characters into the game, and that's already been established, I DO NOT TRUST THAT THEY WILL NOT ALTER THE REST OF THE GAME TO FIT THAT APPROACH / PHILOSOPHY.

I can completely imagine that in the fall I watch an unboxing and picking through everything and send the fraggler back with a note that said "this isn't heroquest."

Sitting in their very woke and not at all exploitative workspace rubbing their hands together saying "lol we got all the old fans' money to get it started, now let's change the whole thing to get the critter crowd to buy it in stores"