Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

[j_dean80]

I’m not a fan of the Orc Bard, but I know my kids would enjoy using it...so that’s more important.

[Cael Darkhollow]

Orcs were probably originally used by Tolkien as a prop to justify all the killing. Tolkein doesn't do half as much description on orc livelihood as Warhammer. With Tolkein, the less we know about orcs the more we fear them. Therefore in killing them we don't have to take into account the morality of the death toll since we're not killing humans.

Are there even Orc Bards in Warhammer? Doesn't matter, it's a reboot with no connection to Warhammer, not the same.
I can see that some people will take this comedy character into their hearts and groups, like Jar Jar Binks. But as a fan of the original game and the mood it was meant in I cannot accept him.

all fantasy settings are Tolkien derivatives for their base mythology, blatantly so with Warhammer, which was super problematic for GamesWorkshop when they actually got the LOTR license, and started making middle earth setting wargames alongside their unofficially tolkenesque Warhammer Fantasy setting, a big part of the reason they decided to end it.
Tolkien's orcs are the enemies of the good folk; cruel and destructive of all that is wholesome in nature or the villages of men. They are certainly categorized as evil if not by specific mention as evil (alignment) then certainly by specific deeds.

It makes zero sense to humanize orcs as a foe intended for the good guys (players) to kill in a board game such as HeroQuest which is aimed at 12 year olds (simplified introductory rpg.) What parents want that moral dilemma weighing on their kid's minds "what if it was a good orc? I could have talked to him, perhaps if he hadn't rushed me with that cleaver. Oh well I killed it strictly in self defense, and will give him a proper burial." This kind of ambiguity over orc intent completely detracts from the basic game design: the forces of Morcar/Zargon are unambiguously evil including the orcs, and it is up to the heroes to destroy them. By making orcs (or halforcs) a playable character class, they have destroyed the basic premise of the game.

D&D half-orcs as a playable character (usually assassins or thieves) in the first early editions were to roleplay an evil or at very least neutral alignment, they were never meant to be good. full blooded Orcs could only be evil npcs. It was a very controversial idea to play evil alignments with parents then in a much more complex rpg game (allowing much more actual roleplay) which is why they were eliminated (along with demons and other evil stereotypes and adult imagery such as pentagrams and breasts) as player classes in 2nd edition Ad&D. It wasn't until 20 years later after OD&D playable half-orcs with the reimagining of orcs in popular culture due to Warcraft that orcs were seen as another race with multiple possible alignments and playable as an adventuring class.

Ogres in Warhammer weren't evil, just brawlers easily convinces to fight for pay (usually food) and could be found as mercenaries for the Empire or Orcs and Goblins, or Chaos armies in the early materials contemporary with HeroQuest development. It wasn't until many editions later that they got their own army book and fleshed out backstory as a mostly destructive race.

the closest thing to an orc bard in Warhammer is the unit musician in a regiment, usually depicted as banging a hide drum although a few models were depicted blowing a ram horn. They certainly weren't strumming a lute, lyre or delicately playing a shawm while singing ballads as we would think of a bard doing; they were gutterally bellowing warcries and slamming a basic marching rhythm.

Not only is a good guy orc against the basic premise of HeroQuest, it went against the setting of its parent warhammer game (heavily influenced by D&D and Tolkien.) The concept is at odds with how the whole fantasy genre viewed orcs at that time.
at the most simplistic level you can't expect kids getting their first dungeoneering experience killing droves of orcs not to be confused by a good guy orc who exhibits a completey different intelligence level and motive.

[Cael Darkhollow]

is the orc bard going to question every encounter with other orcs and view his companions with contempt as they slaughter orcs room to room? How would you even pkay that out in HeroQuest which has limited role playing?

[Oftkilted]

is the orc bard going to question every encounter with other orcs and view his companions with contempt as they slaughter orcs room to room? How would you even pkay that out in HeroQuest which has limited role playing?

Do humans in HeroQuest question killing, Dark Warriors, Chaos Warriors or Warlocks?

If your opponent is trying to kill you ... you should probably address the immediate threat.

[Cael Darkhollow]

is the orc bard going to question every encounter with other orcs and view his companions with contempt as they slaughter orcs room to room? How would you even pkay that out in HeroQuest which has limited role playing?

Do humans in HeroQuest question killing, Dark Warriors, Chaos Warriors or Warlocks?

If your opponent is trying to kill you ... you should probably address the immediate threat.

chaos warriors and warlocks were never seen as merely human, but as evil tainted beings irredeemable and a clear foe.
but to answer your question broadly ouside the game why yes humans would question killing every other human they meet in a village or on the highway, until intent was established (bandits, pirates, slavers, enemy foreign nation or tribe etc.) as clear threats.
I like to play HeroQuest with at least some element of realism or basic suspension of disbelief. The orc would certainly be conflicted by his nonorc companions hacking down room after room full of other orcs. The humans, dwarf, and elf would consider the orc as a racial enemy and would be difficult to plausibly believe they would let an orc even join the party.

[cynthialee]

All this issue over orcs....

I lol because in Saga: the Game the concept of orc and elf being friends is an old reality

sure there were the ancient wars, but both sides little guys were being controlled and manipulated by powerful forces

with the death of the ancient dark ones and the evolving and exit of the ancient light bearers niether side had much reason to instigate hostilities

then came the war with the ogre and troll people and their allies the dragons

orc, man, dwarf, and elf had to turn to each other for saftey

after nearly 300 years of war that ended in eradication of the ogre, subjugation of the troll and driving the dragons back to the ancient caves the elf, orc thing is a footnote in the history books

but on the world of Daroka their are threats to civilization much more deadly than political and racial differences

SO....
At my table we often see Orc, Elf and Human mixed parties. Making this happen for HeroQuest will be no big stretch as I often make up Daroka storylines for the adventures we have in HeroQuest.
As for the guys in the dungeons that are orcs working for the Evil Wizard.....criminals. They work for Zargon... they are on the most wanted list. Chaos Wizards and their minions are only for killing. They want the protection of the Empire, they can be civilized like everyone else of their clan.


I look forward to the Bard.

Also might I point out that you can do some PhotoShop work to make a new card for the bard and make it human, elf or raccoon man. Also there are a ton of Bard miniatures out there that would fit the bill for HeroQuest. I have a handful of bards close enough to scale as it is.

[Pancho]

But we are not talking about Saga the Game (I’ve never even heard of it), we are talking about Heroquest.
A orc joining a Hero party in Heroquest is weird enough by itself. But a foppish, dashing orc bard that wields a rapier and sings with its hand on its heart is just plain stupid, given the source material.

[Oftkilted]

But we are not talking about Saga the Game (I’ve never even heard of it), we are talking about Heroquest.
A orc joining a Hero party in Heroquest is weird enough by itself. But a foppish, dashing orc bard that wields a rapier and sings with its hand on its heart is just plain stupid, given the source material.

An Orc is only “weird in the party” when considering ‘classic HeroQuest’ where Orc are only Enemies and players had no lore surrounding orcs as “noble Warriors of a bygone era”.

Orcs are now no longer “feral dungeon fungus” but appear to be shifting to a race of “heroic Warriors from the past” this group you’re attacking obviously has enlisted under an enemy.

is the orc bard going to question every encounter with other orcs and view his companions with contempt as they slaughter orcs room to room? How would you even pkay that out in HeroQuest which has limited role playing?

Do humans in HeroQuest question killing, Dark Warriors, Chaos Warriors or Warlocks?

If your opponent is trying to kill you ... you should probably address the immediate threat.

chaos warriors and warlocks were never seen as merely human, but as evil tainted beings irredeemable and a clear foe.
but to answer your question broadly ouside the game why yes humans would question killing every other human they meet in a village or on the highway, until intent was established (bandits, pirates, slavers, enemy foreign nation or tribe etc.) as clear threats.
I like to play HeroQuest with at least some element of realism or basic suspension of disbelief. The orc would certainly be conflicted by his nonorc companions hacking down room after room full of other orcs. The humans, dwarf, and elf would consider the orc as a racial enemy and would be difficult to plausibly believe they would let an orc even join the party.

We have explicit “Dark Warriors” in the Dark Company quest chain. They’re humans. Not even specifically “chaos humans.”

The heroes? They’re adventurers out to ensure their own survival. Well aware that there are individuals of any and all races that are out to stop them from bringing home the rewards and gold. The only folks the heroes can trust? Those whom they’re in a group with. Because they’ve obviously placed some level of trust in them ... and they don’t have the sign of “The Dread” about their person ...

[Kurgan]

I read about that too! Warhammer is an interesting universe, but while HeroQuest clearly has connections to WH (and spiritual connections to D&D you could also say), it's not absolute, so I figure it can be a source of inspiration, if one wants it, but doesn't have to. The brilliant adaptation of the Japanese Game System clearly dips into that territory (you fight a Chaos god). So clearly there's already some precedent to build upon if you want.

In my personal view of the HeroQuest world, these Orcs may "worship Chaos" as some kind of impersonal force, or it may be a short form of saying "they love a life of violence." Ultimately their loyalty is to Zargon. Maybe its because he happens to be the biggest Chaos guy out there. Maybe he's exploiting their love of a particular evil deity. Maybe he embodies it for them. Or whatever scenario you could imagine. I keep it generic. It's enough to know that the bad guys are bad, and their powers are dangerous. You could re-write the lore to say that Chaos isn't really a dark side of the Star Wars force, or a different form of magic, you could see it as simply using neutral powers for an evil purpose. It's fun to think about. I just don't feel constrained if WarHammer canon (and its not all one thing either, as that lore has evolved too) says something, and I would rather do it some other way in my personal games.

I do have to be goofy here and imagine an Orc calling to Mork (who calls out to Orson?). Still cooler than evil mushrooms, I will admit.

Still, imagining an enraged Zargon threatening his underlings that if they fail him this time he'll "put them on a pizza" is amusing as well.

[cynthialee]

But we are not talking about Saga the Game (I’ve never even heard of it), we are talking about Heroquest.
A orc joining a Hero party in Heroquest is weird enough by itself. But a foppish, dashing orc bard that wields a rapier and sings with its hand on its heart is just plain stupid, given the source material.

My point Genius is that I found a work around for my table

any schmuck should be able to make up some story that fits their table