AGAINST THE OGRE HORDE discussion

[LucaRocks]

BBTS has Ogre horde on sale for $30

https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... 269367?o=4

EDIT: SALE HAS ENDED

[SirRick]

So was there any official clarification on how the Dread spells work from this pack? Does the defender defend with shields, or do skulls rolled cancel each other out? Such as the bad guy rolls 4 skulls, the Wizard rolls 3 skulls, would the bad guy only score 1 skull in this case?

[Kurgan]

So was there any official clarification on how the Dread spells work from this pack? Does the defender defend with shields, or do skulls rolled cancel each other out? Such as the bad guy rolls 4 skulls, the Wizard rolls 3 skulls, would the bad guy only score 1 skull in this case?

It's a good question and I'm asking it on Avalon Hill discord right now to see what we might get in response!

My thought is this...

Yes we know that they've now officially "nerfed" (by clarifying a stricter interpretation and actually re-wording it to exclude more generous interpretations) the Command spell in First Light. Granted, First Light is separated from ATOH by a length of time (though they've meant to clarify Courage for some time, recalling my infamous shouting at Avalon Bill on discord over it, again, which I apologized in-person for, though I still favor my old interpretation as the most fun use of the spell). We also know that "Zargon can do what he wants" is the golden rule, and we know this is another expansion that AH didn't originally create, but has merely modified in remake form for the present, so regardless of what the original designers intended (or what fans interpreted) they have a right to articulate what they intended when they released this one...

To me, unlike a fan modification (like Phoenix's) where the Chaos Sorcerers have 3-6 BP each, I see that this one preserves the low (1) BP making them quite weak. With this in mind I'm tempted to take a maximalist reading of the spells simply for the fact that they may be wiped out in one round by the heroes anyway, before they have a chance to exhaust any significant fraction of their magic, making for a pretty anti-climactic battle. The "fun" side here kicks in where Zargon could play it by ear (if the heroes are almost dead by this point, maybe he might go easy on them, or if it's clear they're going to just steamroll them all, go for a more powerful interpretation).

Mind Burst (formerly Mind Blast) is the most clear on how to use. Both attacker and victim roll the number of dice equal to their mind points.
Here it is a simple matter of Skulls vs Skulls. So Dread Sorcerer rolls 3 skulls, Dwarf he cast it on rolls 2 skulls. Bad guy wins, and he had one more than his victim, so Dwarf loses 1 mind point. But if it had been the other way (Dwarf rolled 3, bad guy rolled 2) then the bad guy loses a mind point! I wouldn't assume the bad guy goes into shock (no rule written about bad guys going into shock, only heroes) nor about them going unconscious, but I would see how lowering mind points of the bad guy would weaken his ability to "win" at these dice roll offs. If it's too risky to use the spell in this state, that pushes the bad guy to use his physical attack instead. A zero mind point bad guy still can cast spells, attack, move, and do everything as he normally would, but the effectiveness of his spells has been weakened.


"Rolls dice equal to their mind points":
For this and all three spells I would assume this means their CURRENT mind points, not their maximum starting amount. This allows variability in the fight. There's a benefit to keeping mind points up for the good guy (in this version he goes into "Shock" at 0 instead of going unconscious... which is six of one and half a dozen of the other in terms of difficulty.. an unconscious hero can't win or lose... if the whole party is unconscious they lose and must replay the quest but aren't technically dead so no swapping in George Jr. the Barbarian to replace George the Barbarian who died valiantly in battle; a hero in "Shock" is easy pickings for killing the old fashioned way and isn't likely to do much help to his team against any significant threat, though he could still use magic or carry items if he has any to use, though those items would be dropped and could be gathered by other heroes if he were "unconscious"... and an "unconscious" hero has no death save rule for him while a "shocked" victim could be brought out of it by a simple potion of restoration if any has one).

Now Mind Burst is the only one that explicitly says count Skulls against Skulls. The other two I am going to say should be read as Skulls are counted for the bad guy against the White Shields of the hero being targeted. Why? You could simply treat all three the same way, but because it doesn't say, I think that favors the Shield interpretation because that's normally how heroes defend. It also makes it a bit tougher for the hero (see before the overall weakness of these bad guys) since there are 3 skulls on each combat die, but only 2 white shields.

What about Dominate? Should it be "nerfed" in the same way as Command is in first light? First off, this is not First Light, and second, this is not the command spell. Simply being able to "use" a hero figure/piece vs. only being able to move and use the weapon attack is quite different. I think the intention all along was that Command you got to move and attack other heroes, but it wasn't strictly defined what else or in what manner they could do it (the infamous "cast Pass Through Rock and park yourself inside a wall trick idea). I would have at the very least allowed the Commandeered hero to use any attack spells/scrolls he might have, and any potions that enhance his attack (Potion of Strength, Heroic Brew, etc). But Avalon Hill seems to be saying "no" to that. So what of Dominate? I would give Zargon full control of the character. Again, the Sorcerers are very weak as it is, and this power (unlike Command which requires it be resisted... which is also based on current mind points by the way) lasts only one turn each (it runs out by the time Zargon's turn is over). I take the "his turn" to mean Zargon's turn, rather than the specific hero's turn (otherwise the Hero is "forever" taken over, because there's no further way for the hero to resist once he's taken over, just has to ride it out).

They also nerfed the "Pit of Dread" (formerly Pit of Chaos). Now the hero has a chance to move OUT of the pit on his next turn (if he doesn't, then he really is taken over "forever"). Here a "forever" taken over Hero I would give all his abilities to Zargon at this point. It's possible a hero could have a terrible movement roll and/or be boxed in by monsters and thus be unable to get out of the pit, but most of the time he's going to be okay. But once Dominated, marching him into the Pit seems like a worthwhile evil move. Put him right in the center! At this point should he roll black shields like a monster? On this last part, a Dominated hero doesn't have to worry about defense, because he's not going to be attacked on Zargon's turn, and by the time of the first hero's turn, he's going to be back to "normal" anyway.

[Kurgan]

Against the Ogre Horde still hasn't been posted officially in PDF format on the Hasbro Consumer Care page for game instructions (EXCEPT in German...).

[Kurgan]

Sorry for the late update, but it now exists officially in PDF format in English (and is active in the App too of course) but unfortunately the two new Druid designs are NOT yet added to the app as of version 6.0.

My only complaints with this pack is the dreary color scheme of the Ogres (gray for the small ones and beige for the bosses). Fine if you're painting them, not so fine if you're nostalgic about the original colors. I can imagine they might have skipped the dark blue so as to show off the detail easier (lighter colors in general do that for unpainted miniature sculpts) and used gray for the Ogres (like they did in MOTM) because of this idea of Gray being either a very powerful enemy OR meaning a character who could be good OR bad (not that Ogre mercs are an official part of the rules).

The second complaint is a very petty one, but when it comes to laying out tiles next to figures, I would like it if it were feasible with the miniature to either stack the tiles under the figure (which works very well with square tiles and a round base figure, as you can see the corners poking out as a reminder though it does nothing when you have different types of tiles stacked at once) OR else putting the tiles on top of the "surfboard" double base. But you can't really do that with the Boss Ogres because their "loincloth' plastic hangs down so far you can maybe fit one skull tile under there at best, certainly not 3-9 as would be required for some of these big guys.

Having an arena battle with all these activation tiles all over the board can get confusing. I've taken to pointing the edge of the hourglass artwork at the figure in question, but I wish there was a better system. I guess it's kind of like keeping tracking mercenaries, there isn't really a satisfactory way within the box to do it, so you have to come up with your own system.

So yes, I did spray paint my boss ogres blue and my smaller ogres red (just like I sprayed my MOTM ogres dark blue, and my heroes from MOTM/FH in lighter colors more resembling the 1992 versions).

The ARENA MODE has great potential and as you can see people are using it for all kinds of things beyond what is just in the box. Great stuff!

[SirRick]

So no word on how the Dread Spells this pack actually work?

I’ve been toying with giving the Warlock hero one of each of these spells as a form of advancement or something.

[Kurgan]

So no word on how the Dread Spells this pack actually work?

I’ve been toying with giving the Warlock hero one of each of these spells as a form of advancement or something.

We know how they work.

[wallydubbs]

The effects of Mind Burst, Mind Lock & Dominate are overtly similar to Mind Freeze, Mind Blast & Command, they just require extra steps to get there to greater or lesser effect:

For Mind Burst, both the spell caster and hero roll combat dice equal to their mind points, whomever rolls the most skulls wins. The penalty for losing is losing the remainder of mind points.
Example: Festral casts Mind Burst on the Dwarf, Festral gets 8 combat dice, the Dwarf gets 3. If Festral rolls 4 skulls and the Dwarf rolls 3, the Dwarf loses 1 Mind Point because 4-3=1. This spell has the potential to backfire on the spell caster, though, as in the same example the Dwarf could roll 3 skulls and it's entirely possible albeit unlikely that Festral will roll 1 Skull out of his 8 dice and lose 2 Mind Points.
This is similar to Mind Freeze from Frozen Horror, as that spell targets all the hero's mind points, he just needs to roll White Shields for defense, to keep any mind points.

In Mind Lock both the Spell Caster and hero (or target) roll for mind points. If the spell caster rolls more skulls the target loses turns equal to the remainder of skulls.
Example: Festral rolls 8 combat dice against the Barbarian, who has 2. Festral gets 5 skulls while the Barbarian gets 1. The Barbarian loses 4 turns because 5-1=4. If Festral was to use this spell on the Wizard and both rolled 4 s, the spell would have no effect. If the hero outrolls Festral the spell has no effect.
This is similar to Mind Blast from Mage of the Mirror, where the hero needs to roll a with his Mind Points to break free. The hero is automatically paralyzed until he rolls a , only able to defend with 1 defense die.
However Mind Lock does not restrict the hero's defense.

In Dominate the card says both spell caster (attacker) and target (defender) roll for mind points. The target's mind point rolls are irrelevant here, as long as the Spell Caster gets 2 or more skulls, Dominate takes effect and the Spell Caster takes control of the hero for 1 turn. Doesn't matter if the Spell Caster rolls 2 or 200 skulls, it only takes effect for that turn.
This is similar to Command from the Game System, as Command only needs to be cast once and it takes hold indefinitely until the hero rolls a .

Dominate may seem confusing due to statement "The attacker and defender each roll combat dice equal to their Mind Points." But this is said verbatim on Mind Lock & Mind Burst too, so I think it was erroneously placed on this card, since the rest of the card says nothing about comparing rolls.

If you still do not understand how they work, just substitute them with the other cards, which have a stronger effect.

[SirRick]

Thank you wallydubs. That is the kind of helpful response I was looking for. The instructions for Mind Burst are very clear in the quest book, but the other two spells less so. It was unclear if the defender had to roll skulls or white shields. It seems from your explanation that “each skull scored” is the difference between both rolls in all the spells, not just Mind Burst.

With this new understanding then, I would argue that with Dominate the attacker would have to roll at least two more skulls than the defender. This would give some purpose to the defender’s dice roll. So if the Bad Guy rolls 3 skulls and the Barbarian rolls 2, the spell should fail according to the same mechanic comparing skulls in the other two spells. So that is how I will play this particular spell, unless the designers actually said the defender’s roll is pointless. I could try and see how the app handles it too, I guess.

Thanks again, for the explaination.

[wallydubbs]

That's fair considering the wording of Dominate. "If the attacker scores at least two skulls, the spell succeeds."
It doesn't just say "roll" which was my original interpretation. It says "scores,'" implying they're going head-to-head (or mind-to-mind).
To your credit, neither Mind Lock nor dominate specify s or s on the part of the defending party. Only Mind Burst suggests that s are being compared. Based on that alone, I formed my interpretation of the other two cards. Based on that as well, the interpretation of "score" on dominate now seems to align satisfactory with your suggestion.