THE CRYPT OF PERPETUAL DARKNESS discussion

[LucaRocks]

Ok so hear me out... AH knows a lot of people already have this right? And all the back of the box shows is foil cards right? And the cards were the big selling point in the initial reveal right?

Ok so what if the cards are new abilities for the barbarian or dwarf? Or for other characters? THAT would def make it a strong selling point for long time fans. And it wouldn't cost that much extra to do it.

Whaddyathink???

[Vorimir]

Be ready to be disappointed...

[wallydubbs]

Ok so hear me out... AH knows a lot of people already have this right? And all the back of the box shows is foil cards right? And the cards were the big selling point in the initial reveal right?

Ok so what if the cards are new abilities for the barbarian or dwarf? Or for other characters? THAT would def make it a strong selling point for long time fans. And it wouldn't cost that much extra to do it.

Whaddyathink???

As cool as that would be, I'm doubting it'll come to fruition. This is the reason the Berserker & Explorer were made, they're variants of the Barbarian and Dwarf with minor tweaks. They're not gonna change the original heroes. For the most part heroes are mostly balanced. Though the Barbarian and Dwarf might lack skills and spells they do somewhat balance out with the other heroes. If anything think they should come up with a new weapon that only the Barbarian can use, like a Great Sword for 5 attack dice. As much as I like that idea, I'm still doubtful we'll get anything significant from Crypt of Perpetual Darkness.

[Kurgan]

Speaking of alternate heroes... (I'm gonna ramble a bit, skip to the end if you're bored)

It'll not be resolved here, certainly not by me, but the argument that I see very often is that somehow the Barbarian and Dwarf are being left behind by AH, that somehow they have suffered due to the addition of new heroes, which follows a (small, but visible) critique by some against AH's HeroQuest, that the new heroes are all either (fill in the blank) bad because they're too weak and boring or bad because they're too powerful out of the gate.

To me the new Heroes, like the old ones, are designed to appeal to different playing styles. There's no objective "balance" between the heroes such that they are all absolutely equal. You could achieve this very easily by simply making all the heroes literally the same. Let the Barbarian use all the magic spells and the Wizard used all the weapons and make their body and mind points the same. You could have four carbon copy heroes that just use different minis and have different names playing together. There would be nothing wrong with doing that. BUT, that's not how the game was designed. Yes, in the original editions designed primarily by Stephen Baker, the idea was that friendly fire was allowed, and heroes COULD compete with one another, but ultimately he hoped they'd "come together" and work as a team (while Mike Gray's team working on the North American adaptation intended to guide, some would say "force" that kind of cooperation from the start). As such yes, if you are going to have a death match (as the '89 first edition allowed in the "arenas" before you played the first quest "The Maze" which was a competitive quest), it may be that the Barbarian would kill the Wizard and "win" that battle. Does that mean he's a "better" choice? Not necessarily, because the whole point of the arenas was to learn how to fight (and then learn how to use magic in battle). The outcome of these fights really had no other meaning (maybe it drummed up rivalries at the start of the campaign or maybe convinced the players that fighting each other wasn't the best idea). But heroes are not designed such that they are meant to be the solo character, to take all the glory for themselves. Instead, heroes are based upon support of each other. Solo quests are extremely rare in official HQ. The Frozen Horror is rather broken in terms of difficulty but it was designed to make the Barbarian the focus. He gets those three solo quests. There are artifacts only he can use, and potions only he can use. He gets a boost that no other hero gets (except the Elf in MOTM, which technically officially he never got until the remake... the Elven Bracers were never found unless you home-brewed them into the quest prior to 2023).

Let's take the Knight for example. Early on this hero was said to be a problem, because he had 7 BP, the same as the Dwarf. He has the same mind points as the Barbarian. So, immediately people were saying "why would you ever not use the Knight"? First off, the Knight was a limited run exclusive (thankfully the backlash was such he became a regular retail character packed with ROTDM, where you're not forced to use him as a hero of course, he could be a proxy for Sir Ragnar, an NPC, an enemy, or nothing, to your preference like every other hero they've added so far other than the Bard who had a specific role/function in SQT). His "knight's challenge" merely diverts a Wandering Monster from attacking another nearby hero to attack him instead (which would have no function in a solo quest with the Knight; incidentally the only official quest that lets you pick a solo hero other than the elf or barbarian is "into the northlands" though I suspect many just played that with the Barbarian as well, given the FH theme, it was designed as a very easy introduction to that pack to help the solo hero gain some much needed gear if he indeed was starting from scratch, of course if you don't use the barbarian then it's just a one off side quest). The Knight's "shield block" again is used only to help an ally, it has no purpose if he's by himself. The "stalwart" is nice to let him return from death with 1 BP, but in practice that merely makes it seem as if he's playing with 8 BP, same as the Barbarian. So what now? He starts with a shield (3 defense) but only has a 2 dice attack. Meanwhile the Barbarian has a broadsword (3 attack). Some will argue that strong defense is better than strong offense in HQ, but I remember as kids we felt the opposite (kill monsters quickly to avoid damage vs. hoping to survive their attacks) at least in those early quests.

Then there's the Knight vs. the Dwarf... the Dwarf has an equally strong weapon, slightly better MP (mind points are used to resist spells and Chaos/Dread Spells are pretty rare in HQ, except for those infrequent boss fights at least until you start getting magical monsters as you experience in ROTDM). The Dwarf's shield disarming ability is invaluable in any Quest. Why would you substitute the Knight for the Dwarf to lose that, and just hope to use an expensive toolkit instead? So to me the Knight, while "boring" is simply another option for play.

Then we start getting into the other heroes who are vastly different. Early on I recall comparisons with the Elf. Here we have the Bard, Druid, and Warlock each with 3 spells, like the Elf (granted in his own pack the Elf has the Elf spells as an alternate, choose 3 from the pool of 8 instead of an elemental group if you wish). These new heroes lack the flexibility in their magic, but have a nice package to start with. The Warlock is weak like a Wizard in terms of equipment and his only real perk other than the fixed spells is the Wand, the only character with a starting ranged attack (that you can use over and over that is, the Wizard's dagger is lost when thrown same with the Dwarf's hand axe which he later started with via First Light--too valuable to throw away I'd say!). But this wand, while it can be used at close range as well, can't match the strength of the crossbow (which is expensive, but can be used by almost everyone else).

The Bard has only 5 BP and is largely a support character (like a cleric). The armor restriction is optional, which I kind of like, now that I understand what Doug intended here.

The Druid's armor is a great weakness, and lack of a good starting weapon also an issue for this character. Having a tiny bit more healing, which presumably you will use for yourself (with the other healing being used to support another character without healing) to keep shapeshift going which is designed to boost your defense and attack (to make up for the fact that you have such a crappy attack and no armor) is a tricky thing to maintain. This character will be buying better equipment but also potions to keep their defense and attack levels up.

The Monk is very powerful when used properly, but in early quests he's facing weaker monsters and so will have far fewer opportunities to use his "fire" style. Going into battle by himself is a great way to unlock his abilities but also a great way to get mobbed, cut off from the healing of the other heroes, and killed. He's also restricted on some weapons and doesn't use armor at all (not even bracers, again, now understanding what Doug intended for the character).

At first I really did think that the Berserker and Explorer were just re-sculpts of the Barbarian and Dwarf with a few combat cards, but now that we've played them I can see they're nothing of the kind. Really you could call them anything else if you wanted, because playing them exactly as you would those heroes is a great way to see them perish.

Yes, the Explorer does have a nice trap disarming ability like the Dwarf (the other character who can disarm traps like this, the Scout, is a great, but the fact this character has only 2 BP means several traps in the later expansions can kill them if they have one bad roll). The trap finding ability is nice but can give a false sense of security because it only works once per turn. The Hand axe is questionable because why would you throw away such an expensive weapon? It's functionally the same as the shortsword, and so giving this Dwarven character a hand axe seems more a nod to fans of the sculpts and head-canon than it does actual mechanical improvement. You're probably better off keeping the axe until you have a chance to sell it to buy a better weapon.

The Berserker has some nice moves when he's close to death, but without a way to heal himself, he needs support from others. He can also misuse his ability to weaken himself (or even end his own life) if he's not careful. So like the monk sending him off to fight by himself seems like a good strategy but also a very risky one, as someone will need to bail him out.

The great value I see in the Berserker and Explorer is not just that they're new heroes that people can play with to appeal to a different play style, it's that Doug has very obviously also provided a very simple and easy way for someone who plays the Barbarian/Dwarf but feels "left out" that they don't start with any spell cards like the Elf/Wizard. For many years fans have created their own skill cards or used the Combat cards to give these guys starting cards (meanwhile many players prefer these two heroes over the Elf/Wizard because they enjoy the further simplicity of not having a stack of cards to manage... after all in later expansions they may be in this position anyway as they have many more potions and artifacts to think about). So it's a very easy step to just give the 3 skill cards to the Barbarian or Dwarf. It's also very easy to just use the miniatures as a proxy for those two classic heroes for the sake of variety.

If AH judges the reaction to the Berserker and Explorer to be generally positive I think that will push them to move forward with plans (implied by Doug) to release another variant hero inspired by the Wizard that is nonetheless different. We've already gotten an Elf type character in the Rogue (who plays very differently obviously, a weaker character but also one where the three skills are constantly in play, so long as the hero keeps around a dagger and shortsword, the trap disarming ability is pretty weak but saves gold on a toolkit you might otherwise buy). And as before (though it doesn't tell the whole story) just having a character with 6 BP and 3 default spells has been done before.

The only heroes that have been created that truly seem geared to be "stand alone" fighters (that is, not support based) to me are the Monk and Warlock (even the Berserker seems designed to sacrifice himself for the others) and yet these heroes don't stand alone, they are not self sufficient.

Low mind point heroes don't have much to fear except in those quest packs where there are "poison" (or similar type) cards in the Treasure Deck (FH and JoD, and we expect with the remake of WOM) and the rare boss battle against a magical enemy (again except for ROTDM where spell casting monsters are a regular thing).

So while I took some issue with the design aesthetic of the Mythic heroes as many others did (I think the "Halfling" druids in ATOH were a vast improvement and I love the new card back artwork) I think the general mechanics of them aren't bad. I think mostly it's a matter of preference. If the heroes are "archetypal" enough that is a plus because it more easily furnishes the imagination of players to change them into their own homebrew characters rather than just playing them as written or ignoring them. I like the fact that AH doesn't "Force" these heroes into gameplay but leaves their usage entirely up to the players, and continues to design their quests with the idea that you'll be playing with a party made up of the four classics (but also not writing them in such a way so as to make it too hard to incorporate these new characters if you wanted to).

TL;DR? My final (?) prediction is probably we won't get any "new heroes" in retail CoPD. To me there's a much greater chance that they'll simply fill any extra space (after giving us just enough assets needed to play the quests without modification) with another formerly exclusive character from the Haslab campaign.

And since I'm all for stamping out FOMO and sticking it to scalpers, I would welcome such a thing. So maybe we'll get a female Wizard (who is otherwise identical to the male Wizard) or an aged looking Wizard in the box. If not this one, then hopefully WOM will round out the former exclusives. That's what I'd like to see. I mean yeah, it would be cool if there was something totally new and awesome in the box as well, but I don't think we'll be that lucky. It makes the most sense we'd get previously deluxe versions of previously released stuff, and tweaks to the text. I would absolutely love it if CoPD had all four sex swapped heroes and mentor wizard, prisoner sir ragnar, and the witch lord in the box. I don't care what color they are, but just having them all there would be awesome. I'd even take that over yet another set of alternate colored dice (as cool as metallic black dice with green acid symbols sounds). Will we get that? I'm going to say it's probably a long shot. I'm setting my expectations very low on this one. I understand wanting to surprise us by not mentioning such things, but at the same time they have to know many are still on the fence with something like this, so at the very least they should be TEASING it, and not doing so, so close to release might mean in fact that the folks saying it will be a minimal release are right. To me the limiting factors are time, the size of the box, and cost. It would be much cheaper for them to reprint existing material than to create something entirely new for this one (while they focus those efforts on WOM and the next expansion whatever it might be).

As for me, whether it's because of "tariffs" or wanting to get more in the box, would I pay a little more for this one? Sure I would, and that's coming from someone who pledged and proudly owns the Mythic set. In theory I wouldn't have to buy it at all because we've even already played through the entire campaign with our group (and really most of needed assets can be found in other packs I also already own), but I would certainly support the effort especially to get more of these "former FOMO" releases out the door for the countless fans that still want them, and these assets are great fodder for inspiring homebrew even if you don't care much about the included adventures as written.

[wallydubbs]

I get where you're coming from, having no skills or spells kinda reduces the Barbarian's worth somewhat among the rest of the heroes. He is, in essence, the simplest hero for new players to learn.
According to my points system in ranking the heroes the Knight does indeed come out on top when fully equipped with armor and weapons. For starting heroes it was the Monk. The Knight's value comes in his ability to wear Plate Mail without the movement penalty and having Skill cards to aid his teammates. However he is limited to his Shield. He might last longer in the long run when he's up to 6 defense, but he's not as hulking as the Barbarian, Berserker or Dwarf could be with a Battle Axe. Or course, these aren't the only heroes that can use a Battle Axe, but being able to wear metal armor balances them out. If you want someone that can dish out heavy hits you put a Battle Axe on any one of these 3. Better yet if one of them has Borin's Armor.

The Berserker is very close to the Barbarian, his skills are seemingly what a Barbarian, by definition, would be about. But the creators didn't just want to rewrite the Barbarian character, so they made someone similar that just about balances out. The Barbarian has an extra body points and can use a Crossbow where the Berserker has 3 skills. But one of these skills, in my opinion, is a double edged sword. Enrage isn't really that great. Sure, it could bring the Berserker up to 6 attack dice for one attack, but at the cost of 2 body points it's not likely to be worth it. The Berserker's skills should be used out of necessity and desperation, but an immature player might wrongly lose body points just to unlock these skills, which makes this character a little more risky and dangerous than the Barbarian. But I still stand by the Berserker's origins in being a makeshift Barbarian.
The Explorer is a little further from the Dwarf and is probably the only hero that exceptionalizes in Trap detection. Trap Smith and Danger Sense are incredibly useful. However due to his lack of armor he lacks fighting prowess. So much like the Knight and Barbarian has the debate of would you rather have offense or defense, the Dwarf or Explorer is a choice of combat orientation or trap detection.

The Druid is essentially a stand-in for the Elf. I'll agree that she's not as powerful as the Elf, but she certainly shows to be the most improved until you add artifacts. On my points system the Druid starts off the lowest mainly due her starting weapon, but once she's built up with equipment that Shapeshift is no longer a necessity, but a bonus. Of course, if we include artifacts there's no contest and the Elf takes the cake thanks to Mage of the Mirror artifacts.
The Warlock reaches her ceiling rather quickly. Once the heroes have maxed out the Warlock comes in last on my points system. She's useful in certain circumstances, I had a lot of fun with her in Against the Ogre Hoard against slow moving monsters with low mind points.
I concur with the Bard. He's one of the reasons I was against the newer heroes.

I too doubt we'll be seeing any new heroes in Crypt of Perpetual Darkness. I've been playing the Mythic Tier version and I think more Darkness needs to be implemented. The dankness of the dungeon is emphasized by the opening passages, but by quest 6 there's only been 1 hallway dark enough where the heroes can only detect close traps. Something more to emphasize the importance of the Crown of Shadows would be preferable. But I'm doubting any severe changes will be made.
I could only hope they tie the epilogue into Wizards of Morcar.

[Kurgan]

Being able to wear plate armor with no movement penalty is great. Of course there's only one Borin's Armor (well, sorta... it can be found again in SQT and either GS or FL). If you have two copies of Borin's Armor, there's little point in spending 850 gold just for the Knight, but at least he can get something out of it. Fully equipped the Barbarian still has more BP (especially if he has his Amulet of the North) even if he lacks those skills (which again are meant in a support capacity or the 1 BP save).

If you have Borin's Armor, the Elven Chainmail, then Platemail, and another hero who can't wear it anyway (Wizard, Warlock, Monk, Druid, Explorer; Bard who might or might not) though some in that latter category can wear bracers instead or the Wizard's Cloak.

Where it gets forgotten with the Enrage skill is you don't have to lose 2 BP, you can also choose to lose 1.

Potion of Vision is actually better than the Explorer's ability, and is intended only for the Elf, but granted, it's something you have to find (very rare) or else buy.

I will agree with those that the new heroes aren't necessarily meant as a permanent replacement for any of the classic four. They can excel as something for a player who is just joining the table for that one-off to use, or as a special challenge to someone who has gotten tired of playing the others. Nothing wrong with taking that hero through their paces for a stretch of 10+ quests, but just agreeing they can have other uses.

The MOTM artifacts (several of which are only for the Elf) are pretty great, but many of them have limited use (except the Sky Orb which has no use within the quest pack it is found!).

I was thinking how the Alchemist Deck from ROTDM flattening the hero-specific potions was kind of an annoying thing, but I guess even lowering the price for those specific heroes would have served no purpose, since the heroes could just loan their gold to that one who would buy the potions and then hand them out. They'd have had to make it so they were more effective when used by that hero or something (kind of took the wind out of my quick fix, similar to the old playtest idea that somehow only the Warlock could buy the Wand... before they settled on only she could USE it).

[LucaRocks]

Word on the Action Figure streets is that Hasbro is suspending new preorders because of the tariffs. No one is sure how long they will do this, but it's a pretty safe bet that it will be at least until they work out the tariff issue.

We are talking about action figures of course, not games. But still could be relevant. Hopefully, it won't last long and we will still be able to preorder COPD when it goes up.

There's an article about it here but it's being reported at multiple places now

https://ghostbustersnews.com/2025/05/10 ... certainty/

[Kurgan]

People are getting their FanRoll First Light Dice this week/end.

[wallydubbs]

People are getting their FanRoll First Light Dice this week/end.

I just now ordered it.

[Kurgan]

And the dice look... disappointing. Not nearly as cool unboxed as they do in those promo pics. Too bad they're not edible!

In some good news there's a sort of cease-fire in the trade war, at least a 90 day pause with reductions in the tariffs. Hasbro's Pre-orders still paused as of last night though.