Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

[Pancho]

Shadzar I can see that you understand this topic very well. Just a heads up that your posts will probably end up getting nuked though. The mods here are pretty cool but anything overlapping with politics will disappear. I already posted on the main Hasbro thread links about how SJW racists wanted to change orcs because they couldn’t look at something completely innocent and not see black people. It’s the world we live in now unfortunately.
You also make a good point about how they always target existing franchises for vehicles to promote their ideology. It is indeed a very parasitic movement. Wouldn’t it be great if these people could actually create something worthwhile of their own that large numbers of people could enjoy?

[Davane]

Maybe I'm too old school, but I remember when human Bandits were classed as Monsters. The idea is simple - you see a monster, you kill it. Heroes are on one side, Monsters on the other.

We're talking clear Objective Evil here, a staple of any Heroic Fantasy series. There's always a BBEG to fight, some Dark Force to overcome, and the Champions of Light to defend it.

The very Warhammer World is built on this foundation, and it's going to take some work to to get me to accept HQ built on any other foundation. It's part of the appeal.

Compare this to WFRP, which takes the shades of grey approach of the Grim Dark genre. It's the same setting, but a different tone - like digging a little deeper beneath the Sigmarite propaganda machine and seeing the corruption just under the surface.

The point isn't that these are "just orcs" - they've become much more than "just orcs" over time. They are Warhammer Orcs. You wouldn't see a Warhammer Orc wearing a foppish hat and trying to pretend it was an Imperial citizen.

However, I could see a D&D Orc doing that, as D&D Orcs are "just orcs" and it requires the setting of the campaign to turn them into something more. D&D Orcs are diverse, because the range of settings and cultures are diverse. Faerunian Orcs are not the same as Eberron Orcs, or Blackmoor Orcs, or the Orcs of the Known World. Yet, these are ALL D&D Orcs.

All the SJW stuff is virtue signalling of the highest calibre. Orcs are fictional, and by all means, redefine Orcs to be whatever you want them to be in YOUR setting.

Hasbro as a right to do this with their new HeroQuest setting, but it will never be true HeroQuest to me, because true HeroQuest is part of the Warhammer World, and that means HeroQuest Orcs are Warhammer Orcs.

But for everyone wanting to redefine Orcs because they've been defined using terms that some people have ascribed to POC in the past seems to be missing the point. It's not Orcs that need a civil rights movement outside of any given fictional setting, it's POC here in the real world. How about we just stop referring to POC using terms we relate to Orcs (assuming we haven't already)? Because, at the end of the day, after all this is done, it'll be a sadly ironic point when Orcs aren't treated as Monsters when POC still are.

In the meantime, the Orc Bard hero is out of place in HeroQuest, because it's like they have literally come from another time and place. All it is doing is further assert that Hasbro intend to go their own way with the HeroQuest brand, more than simply changing some of the GW IPs names...

[Kurgan]

I feel like I'm missing the point of your argument...
Are you saying that Star Wars should have stopped at A New Hope?
Are you saying that Planescape and the Forgotten Realms (and so much more) should have been left out of Dungeons and Dragons?
Are you saying that there should have been no Return of the Witch Lord or Against the Ogre Horde (or any other expansion) for HQ?
And so on...

I feel like this argument is drawing an arbitrary line in time and saying "Everything on that side of the line is bad because it is on that side of the line."

So just to bring this back on topic the orc bard isn't bad because it is NEW, the orc bard is bad because it isn't an archetype.
And archetype is something the original and the reprint are doing with the core heroes, thus when the extra ones are not it has a disconnect.
If they had replaced "The Barbarian" with "Keldor the Human Warrior" and the Dwarf with "Kevin the Dwarf Burgerler" then "Biff the Orc Bard" wouldn't be a problem anymore. (Then we could be arguing the pros and cons of archetypes verses named heroes...)

Bad example. The Orc Bard isn't being hated "just because its new." Yes, new stuff WILL rightly be examined critically, that's to be expected, but while I'm not as upset as some have gotten over this particular character, I can see where they are coming from. It's not that you can't make expansions and sequels. It's when you make them so long after the original material is established, and it seems to break with the spirit or design of the established stuff, that you stir up controversy. I don't think it's a big deal because it's just a bonus item that most players won't even see and thus can easily ignore.

Now you want to hear a more drawn out, nerdier rant about it? Okay then...

I'm sure the political discussion will get nuked (as important a discussion as it is to have, maybe not here...), but I don't think those are great examples.

The first three Star Wars movies were made by the same people, within a span of six years. So we are talking about an established fictional entertainment franchise where somebody else steps in, usually many decades later and remakes, revamps, buys out and makes sequels, retcons, etc. to that franchise that prove controversial with fans of the previous stuff.

So yes, all lines are arbitrary. To use the Star Wars example, there are huge numbers of old school fans who like Empire Strikes Back more than the original Star Wars. If you examine them, there are a lot of changes of emphasis, plot and character twists that occur in that second movie that could not have been assumed from the first (and while George Lucas is fond of the phrase "I always intended..." it's clear from interviews with the other creators who worked on the series and leaked draft scripts that it was not something Lucas himself planned all along and stuck to all the way). Similarly there are lots of people who were introduced to the series with Return of the Jedi (the third one, released six years after the first) that is their favorite. Lucas made his infamous Prequel Trilogy 16 years after Return of the Jedi and they created a big split in the fandom. But even there you can draw a line between all that established lore (there was a big "reset" in much of the expanded universe of supplementary comics, novels, games, etc. when the Prequels began). This is about the time I started caring a lot less about "canon" in fictional franchises. It didn't seem to serve any useful purpose. I can see doing it to keep your story straight but if you're just going to revise it every few years, what's the point? It's not like people can't enjoy the "non-canon this week" stuff anymore. Lucas, long viewed as the "creator and owner" (legally yes, but all of Star Wars was a collaborative affair, especially in the first trilogy), sold it to Disney and they made new movies, 10 years after the last prequel and again split the fandom.

I talk about Star Wars because that's what I know. I don't know D&D. Most of what I have learned about it has been as an adult, from reading the internet or what other friends who do play it have told me. I don't play Warhammer or World of Warcraft (I enjoyed the RTS computer games that WOW is a spinoff from, remember those?). I can't tell you about forgotten realms or Skyrim or Legend of Zelda (I played the NES games, does that count?). I can also tell you about HeroQuest, at least the version that we had in the US circa 1991 which my best friend and siblings played together. Apart from a couple exchanges on a BBS a few years later, that was the extent of my involvement in the HQ "community" until I discovered this forum. But we're talking here about an established fandom. I've said many times I'm even willing to (respectfully of course) disagree publicly with Stephen Baker, just as I am free to disagree with George Lucas about some creative decision on a franchise that has been out for so long. I don't have to accept every retcon they come up with, do I?

So with Hero Quest, we have new people who never worked on HeroQuest before, jumping in and revising the "canon" (if you will) three decades later. So if you're going to draw a line there, you absolutely can, and it's not unreasonable.

So no, you don't have to draw a line through all references to "chaos" in your 1989 instruction booklet and cards. You don't have to throw out your Fimirs and Chaos Warriors. You don't have to draw an arrow to the white bearded guy in the red cape and write "this be Mentor, yo" on your game screen. When you buy the new game, there's an obvious authorial intention for how you use it. But even there HeroQuest is a game that has always encouraged modding and imagination so you can "pretend" it's anything you want. No official Hero Quest Censor is going to leap out from behind the curtains to slap your hand away if you are using the Orc Bard piece as just another monster, as a statue for the grand ballroom, or something.

And another point is well made, that if we're hearing them right about the exclusives, most "normies" who play 2021 HeroQuest remake won't have any idea about these other things that only hardcore people like us may have pledged for.

I was going to blame this whole Orc debate on "Bright" but maybe it was before that... I just think it's really silly and a shame that some people seem like they can only be happy if other people aren't having fun. I feel sorry for people who can't ever relax and just enjoy themselves, who have to see everything through the lens of some eternal political struggle and constantly second guess other people's motives. My solution for the Orc Bard is: 1) throw it out 2) change it to something better 3) ignore it. Or, if you like it, more power to you! But I feel no pressure to somehow retroactively change HQ to make it work, as is.

[Pancho]

Davane, it's entirely possible that Hasbro will diverge far enough from proper Heroquest that the new game will need its own sub-forum, i.e. its becomes entirely incompatible with the old lore, feel, storyline etc.
That would be a shame, but we are quite a long way off that at the moment. It will entirely depend on how far off reservation that Teos Abaldia guy and his colleagues want to go. Maybe Morcar himself was just a misunderstood guy who made a few mistakes . Heck, why not make him into an actual bardic rock star with electric guitar and sunglasses.

[Kurgan]

Perhaps the honest feedback on the new stuff will set the tone for what they will do in the future. We can only hope! I just hope for HQ that we can avoid the fan-blaming, toxicity, splitting and other nonsense that has occurred with some other high profile fantasy franchises in recent years.* Just keep the fans happy, give them quality content where appropriate, honor the fact that they've made your brand valuable, and leave well enough alone, I say.

When its no longer fun, then it's time to pack it up and walk away. And if someone who owns a beloved franchise can't improve it or preserve it without destroying it, it's time to give it to someone more worthy.

* And it's usually not even the fault of fans, it's simple mismanagement by the owners/promoters.

PS: Human bandit "monsters" are something I'm in favor of. We already had evil humans already with the Chaos Warriors from the beginning. As cool as Warhammer lore seems to be, it isn't the end-all, be-all for HeroQuest lore either, since it's only "loosely based" after all.

As a fan when there's a gap in the lore and I want an answer (don't need one, most of the time) I'm going to pick the explanation that I think is the coolest. Or I'm going to just make one up that I like!

[Davane]

Davane, it's entirely possible that Hasbro will diverge far enough from proper Heroquest that the new game will need its own sub-forum, i.e. its becomes entirely incompatible with the old lore, feel, storyline etc.
That would be a shame, but we are quite a long way off that at the moment. It will entirely depend on how far off reservation that Teos Abaldia guy and his colleagues want to go. Maybe Morcar himself was just a misunderstood guy who made a few mistakes . Heck, why not make him into an actual bardic rock star with electric guitar and sunglasses.

Hasbro totally has right to do that, and I will be looking to see what they intend to do with it. But I'm old school, and HQ will forever be tied with the Warhammer World for me, because that's what I grew up with. In fact, it was AHQ that inspired me the most to pick up HQ in the first place, and that in turn led me to D&D. It also led me to WHQ, which got me through some tough times in my childhood, and solidified my identity as a gamer before these new-fangled PCs and internet-wotsits became all the rage. I also solidly enjoyed HQ on various 8-bit systems.

It makes sense that Hasbro will go their own way with HQ, simply because they CANNOT use the Warhammer World for lore without license from GW. In a way, HQ was GW's biggest mistake - but it's unlikely HQ would even be here without MB's involvement, and Hasbro ultimately owning the HQ brand.

This means the biggest decision to be made is where HQ will go WITHOUT the Warhammer World. It's certainly doable - look at the Japanese Game System which is still HQ, but not set in the Warhammer World. Fans can always convert and cross-pollinate, as we've been doing this for DECADES already.

The biggest issue with the Orc Bard is the simple fact that it's an Orc. Any other race could have been chosen without much hassle, though a Dwarf Bard might be stretching it a bit. But, instead they went with an Orc, and EVERYTHING we know about Orcs from the Warhammer World is that they wouldn't be a foppish Bard. Without any other context, an Orc Bard feels like it's an Orc for the sake of being an Orc, with hardly anything that you could define as Orcish being relevant to the Hero at all. It's almost like they designed an Elven Bard, but realised they already had an Elf, so picked another race seemingly at random.

If Teos' Quest Book regarding a "new" Ancient Orc Kingdom can do the Orc Bard justice, then by all means, I am all for it. But right now, we are missing key bits of lore that make a foppish Orc Bard even viable in HQ. In fact, the lore as we know it all but precludes the idea of an Orc Bard - can you imagine what the Sigmarite Witch Hunters would do to an Orc Bard!? The chief deity of the Empire literally gained his godhood for SLAYING ORCS. Any Orc entering the Empire is going to NEED an army just to protect them, and that's pretty much a declaration of war right there.

That basically leaves Marienburg and the Border Princes as a place for the Orc Bard to exist, let alone thrive, and the Border Princes are far too close to the Greenskin Tribes for any Orc to be allowed to roam around that isn't some sort of slave or prisoner of war. So we really just have Marienburg, which might explain the Orc Bard's foppishness and pirate-like attire. Probably wouldn't spend much time off ship, just in case, and if they do, probably won't be rescuing Sir Ragnar any time soon!

That said, I'd totally go for an Orc Bard as a Rock Star - if The Doctor can pull it off, then Orcs certainly can! Heck, wouldn't be surprised if the worship of Gork and Mork involved some kind of heavy metal music. Maybe there's a third, lesser known, Orc deity known as Rork, and his priests truly are RORK STARS! \m/ \m/

[Oftkilted]

But we already know that all of the physical locales that you’re mentioning, any geographic representation or in-game reference to deities tied to WHfB can’t exist anymore because of the GW and Hasbro split.

“The Empire” - Tied to WHFB. Might be able to be translated into the new universe, but that’s sketchy.
Sigmarites - related to Sigmar being the Empire and now a Deity in WHFB
Border Princes - WHFB
Marienburg - WHFB

I get that you like it in the old Warhammer World universe. But that isn’t the case for the new edition. Orc bards in the Warhammer world? Not Likely. Impossible ... no ... but unlikely.

We’re looking at a complete split from a story world. Fantasy, but a different ‘fantasy history.’

If it doesn’t work for you in your ‘HeroQuest universe’ so be it.

Personally after thinking about Orc26’s reference of archetypes I’m of the thought that adding species modifiers to the classes doesn’t work well.

“Warlock” “Bard” and “Druid” rather than “<species> Bard” or “<species> X”

[cornixt]

I have zero interest in the Diversity in D&D trying to inject themselves into HeroQuest because they failed to to force themselves into D&D.

What do you mean here, any examples?

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated.

We present orcs and drow in a new light in two of our most recent books, n those books, orcs and drow are just as morally and culturally complex as other peoples. We will continue that approach in future books, portraying all the peoples of D&D in relatable ways and making it clear that they are as free as humans to decide who they are and what they do.

It looks like they succeeded, not failed.

This all seems a bit too much like wanting to keep established racism/sexism in a continuing franchise just because it is comfortable and easy.
We've had 30 years of people making their own HQ rules, backgrounds, models, using their home printers, commercially available stuff, and more. It has always been the case that it is easy to just replace what you don't like and add in what you do. It's not like your only option is a movie with a nonsensical plot and terrible characters.

[Kurgan]

I've only played the star wars saga version of D&D a few times, so I can't speak for the accusation that D&D was "racist" or "sexist." I suspect though that if it's SJW's claiming so, it's probably not true, since I reject their definition of the terms. No offense to anyone, I'm just not a part of their religion.

[wallydubbs]

I just think it's really silly and a shame that some people seem like they can only be happy if other people aren't having fun. I feel sorry for people who can't ever relax and just enjoy themselves, who have to see everything through the lens of some eternal political struggle and constantly second guess other people's motives. My solution for the Orc Bard is: 1) throw it out 2) change it to something better 3) ignore it. Or, if you like it, more power to you! But I feel no pressure to somehow retroactively change HQ to make it work, as is.

If other players want to incorporate the Orc Bard into their group, more power to them, but personally I can't stomach it in my group.

A little prejudice? Perhaps. I would be fine if they wanted go add an Orc Hero, but the only way I can justify him being a Bard is if he's gay.
My cousin started off playing as a default Wizard, but over a series of quests we discovered that that Wizard is a metrosexual coward that went into wizardry school because he wanted to learn magic to make his hair as silky smooth as an elves'.
My brother plays as the Dearf, whose name is Squatty, he speaks with a Scottish accent (which makes him sound like Shaun Connery. Although he has the background as a pirate he's often willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. When it is his turn and he has no action to perform he will default to smoking a cigar as his action.
My other cousin plays the Elf, who has the attitude of a beer guzzling redneck yet the flamboyance of Ric Flair. His weapon of choice is the crossbow.
And then there's the Barbarian, whom they all alternate turns on. He speaks little but does most of the fighting, so by default he was named Conan "the Barbarian". And that's the extent of his personality; much like Arnold Schwarzenegger in the movie, there is none. His importance, though, is recognized by the other heroes because "attacking" is the most common action.

Now maybe the Orc Bard and/or Demonic Hobbit could fit into a group like this. But their stories and personalities are already practically half-written. I liked my players discovering their personalities along the way.
If the Dwarf or Barbarian dies, they could have a brother or cousin that takes up his sword out of vengeance.
If the Orc Bard dies... no one will weep.