Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

[Kurgan]

Or you could try this system:

EU Heroquest: M8
NA Heroquest: GR8
Japan Heroquest: L8
Hasbro Heroquest: H8

(just a joke there! I don't actually "hate" it)

For me I will use the term "Hero Quest Classic" or "Classic HeroQuest" to refer to the OG game (all of the above except the last one) and "remake" for the 2021 iteration. A bit like how Transformers G1 encompasses a bunch of stuff set off from a lot of the other later stuff.

Someday, if we're not careful, there will be people who play the 2021 game who don't realize it's a remake!

[Oftkilted]

Or you could try this system:

EU Heroquest: M8
NA Heroquest: GR8
Japan Heroquest: L8
Hasbro Heroquest: H8

(just a joke there! I don't actually "hate" it)

For me I will use the term "Hero Quest Classic" or "Classic HeroQuest" to refer to the OG game (all of the above except the last one) and "remake" for the 2021 iteration. A bit like how Transformers G1 encompasses a bunch of stuff set off from a lot of the other later stuff.

Someday, if we're not careful, there will be people who play the 2021 game who don't realize it's a remake!

North American should be “NA8” so when we’re talking about “Nate” we know that he’s not our “Mate” who isn’t “Late” so don’t go “Hate” on the new players.

Basically there’s:
Classic British Version 1e EU/BV1E
Classic British Version 2E EU/BV2E
Classic North American (NA89 or NA90 or HQ89)
North American Rerelease (NA20 or NA21 or HQ20/21)

[Kurgan]

If I were writing it, I'd be tempted to take it that Orcs are a subspecies of Goblin. Maybe they can't reproduce on their own (like mules). The idea of them being a frankenstein creation is a cool idea, so is the idea of them being aliens (to draw in a space crusade/warhammer 40k type of universe).

I think it's kind of a cool idea that all of the "races" of the Empire are closely related (maybe more than some of the warring factions would want to admit). Could an Eagle mate with a Spider and produce fertile offspring? Probably not (though with magic, who knows??), but mixed Dwarf, Elf, Goblin, Orc, "man" etc. would be possible. Hero Quests' "Empire" encompasses a bunch of different beings, and so do the Chaos hordes outside (we have evil Elves, Men, probably Dwarves, and the usual monsters).

Can undead be "good"? Or is the magic that animates them always evil? Gargoyles? I think the idea of Orcs that are "good" is perfectly possible, whether they are lab-built mutants, corrupted elves, or just taller goblin-kin. This would be a cool area to explore in new stories. I'm okay with the idea of them generally being evil in this "time period" however. (the message of freedom and virtue promoted by that crazy pirate and his loyal crew took time to catch on).

Reaper also has their own line of female Orcs under the name "Jade Fire."

[Shadzar]

like the other new "heroes" they will get sold to someone and their "cards" destroyed, or used as named "mobs" during special quests like Sir Ragnar.

I have zero interest in the Diversity in D&D trying to inject themselves into HeroQuest because they failed to to force themselves into D&D.

D&D is not HeroQuest, and HeroQuest is not D&D. the loose connection to Warhammer it had before was because GW supplied minis, and there are too many games and universes today to be stuck to another game and HQ should be its own world that follows its own rules, which HQ says



not a "hero" if you ask me. this is a simple game and should remain so. people can add their own things, but i dont condone changing the simple "good fights evil" to placate modern ideologies that is corrupting much of gaming.

[Oftkilted]

like the other new "heroes" they will get sold to someone and their "cards" destroyed, or used as named "mobs" during special quests like Sir Ragnar.

I have zero interest in the Diversity in D&D trying to inject themselves into HeroQuest because they failed to to force themselves into D&D.

D&D is not HeroQuest, and HeroQuest is not D&D. the loose connection to Warhammer it had before was because GW supplied minis, and there are too many games and universes today to be stuck to another game and HQ should be its own world that follows its own rules, which HQ says



not a "hero" if you ask me. this is a simple game and should remain so. people can add their own things, but i dont condone changing the simple "good fights evil" to placate modern ideologies that is corrupting much of gaming.

Sarcasm: So you’re falling for the “human propaganda”? That ‘all monsters are evil’? And yet the monsters who haven’t left their homes are being hunted by a group of hardened killers who invaded their homes and the orcs, goblins and others are being murdered by them indiscriminately? /Sarcasm

On a slightly more serious note, I’d recommend doing your play through of the Spirit’s Torment before making your decision. Because what happens in that quest is now part of the HeroQuest universe canon.

In that section you quoted, you’re looking at an entry for ‘evil orcs’ which could just as well be for ‘evil humans’.

And then there’s that last bit: “Orcs should never be underestimated.” By lumping all orcs together in the ‘evil bucket’ you are completely underestimating them. We have an Orc Bard here at Ye Olde Inn. Goes by the name Sjeng? Official Spokesman Sjeng Ye Olde Orcish Bard.. And adding them in as a playable race puts them back in the “not underestimating them” camp.... and Sjeng has been around Ye Olde Inn for over 9 years.

[cornixt]

I have zero interest in the Diversity in D&D trying to inject themselves into HeroQuest because they failed to to force themselves into D&D.

What do you mean here, any examples?

not a "hero" if you ask me. this is a simple game and should remain so. people can add their own things, but i dont condone changing the simple "good fights evil" to placate modern ideologies that is corrupting much of gaming.

Corrupting? I think people can handle that being of a particular race doesn't make you inherently evil. What is evil anyway? Is genocide evil if it is of an evil race? And exceptions to a rule are pretty popular, look at all the stories where dangerous wild animals save/protect people.

[cynthialee]

"YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"




I am all for ork bards especially if it makes the stuffy, fuddy, duddy types all upset over "cannon" in a game that was created in living memory

imagine how mad the creators of the original Greek myths must be when they saw what the eons did to their cannon


Things change. Orcs are created by Tolken and they were corrupted elf stock. Then D&D came around and made them Pig Men....then then then....all of our myths and stories are subject to revision and retcon.

Also it is Hasbro property. They can do as they want and that is cannon suddenly.

[Davane]

First up, Hasbro can do whatever they want with their game, and the Orc Bard seems more like a way for Hasbro to break away from GW's Old World canon for HQ, and go with a more D&D approach of Orc diversity.

For me though, HQ is ostensibly linked with the Old World, and there's no way that you would get an Orc Bard. Canonically, the "brute" in the Old World is the Ogre, which are oafish nomadic mercenaries that often fill the role that Orcs would have in other settings.

In HQ, you have Orcs as the minions of Chaos and Morcar, although they are more intrinsically tied to the Waaaagh! Therefore, there's little chance that Orcs would be on the side of the Heroes or the Empire. Sigmar founded the Empire by crushing the Orcs. Even if an Orc had bard-like abilities, they would be better suited as shamanistic, in the aid of other Orcs. That's before we even get to the part where Old World Orcs are essentially fungoid!

Even if we forgot all that and accepted the premise that there could be an Orc Bard, why would they play the lute, use agility, and fight with a rapier? Orcs are intrinsically linked to the Waaaagh! Being around too many other Orcs can be dangerous, unless they channel it in an orcish manner. In the Old World, brute strength, raw emotion, tribalism, and loudness are what being an Orc is all about. Therefore, an Orc Bard would be more like a Barbarian Skald, not an Elven Minstrel. I could see the Orc Bard/Shaman favouring drums, as well as the medieval equivalent of an electric guitar. The Orcish way is Rock and Metal! \m/ \m/

From what I can tell, whomever came up with the idea of the Orc Bard clearly didn't do it from a position of knowing anything about Orcs in the Old World, and this just serves to reinforce the idea that HQ will be moving away from the Old World going forward. It seems like they had the idea for a Bard, and then just picked a race from the D&D PHB that wasn't in HQ yet.

Saddest thing is that the Bard could have been a decent hero, if it wasn't so blatantly trying to break away from the Old World theme for HQ. I know Hasbro can't use the Old World, but we can, and there's plenty of places in the Old World where Bards would make sense without having to be Orcs for the sake of trying to be different. Marienburgers (Humans) or High Elves would make great Bards, for example. Norscans and Albions are some more examples for a more tribal edge. Then there's the Bretonnians, Tileans, or Estalians.

The Orc Bard falls foul of the "humans in silly hats" design fallacy. It completely ignores what makes an Orc, well, Orcish.

[Pancho]

like the other new "heroes" they will get sold to someone and their "cards" destroyed, or used as named "mobs" during special quests like Sir Ragnar.

I have zero interest in the Diversity in D&D trying to inject themselves into HeroQuest because they failed to to force themselves into D&D.

D&D is not HeroQuest, and HeroQuest is not D&D. the loose connection to Warhammer it had before was because GW supplied minis, and there are too many games and universes today to be stuck to another game and HQ should be its own world that follows its own rules, which HQ says



not a "hero" if you ask me. this is a simple game and should remain so. people can add their own things, but i dont condone changing the simple "good fights evil" to placate modern ideologies that is corrupting much of gaming.

Can’t disagree with any of that, well said.
I’ll just add a minor point in response to the later comments about the meaning of the “orcs should never be underestimated”. I’ve always thought that that was just a warning to the Heroes that orcs are quite dangerous foes, and their 3 combat dice attacks are often (in my experience) enough to kill off Mentor’s guys if they aren’t careful. It certainly wasn’t a pep talk from the original designers to get players thinking that orcs could be musical, dashing, handsome allies (puke).

[Oftkilted]

To quote and massacre an amusing lyric:

An orc is an orc, of course, of course,
And no one can kill an orc of course,
That is, of course, unless the orc is lying there quite dead.

Go right to the source and ask the orc
He'll embed his axe into your corpse
He's always mourning with remorse
Once you are quite dead.

So what is it that makes an Orc, well “orcish”?

Personally, I hope that the Spirit’s Lament quest line goes into that with more detail.

We’ve seen what evil versions of races do, but how does that change when we have humans being evil? As an example in the ‘Dark Company’ quest chain.

It’s quite easy to fall into the “it looks different, it must be evil” or “it’s not a pretty race, it must be evil” or “only pretty races can sing” tropes.

There was an interesting book that did similar to the Undead in the Warhammer universe “Nagash: The Undying King” involving a necromancer and a large amount of undead. I’d highly recommend it.

The Warhammer Crime series “Baggit and Clodd : Drudgerunners ” is similarly interesting. Clodd is a spectacularly intelligent Ogryn. With ‘deep thoughts’ about the universe ... and gets in loads of trouble because of it. He was shot in the head and now can’t play the part of a “stupid ogryn” at all ...