AGAINST THE OGRE HORDE discussion

[Kurgan]

Revisiting the Druid (which to be clear, I have not yet used in an actual adventure in our group yet).

And we're 10 days from the end of February, when we were told (via instagram and ? X) there would be an official "update" (most are assuming it will be the announcement of pre-orders... since the official release would be only weeks or even days away at that point).

I presume we'll be getting ATOH added to the companion app around the same time as the official release date. I wonder if they'll also take this opportunity to correct the inability (in the last two updates) to pass through monsters with magic and/or the Rogue's skill? I wonder if perhaps this had something to do with a botched attempt to incorporate this pack's Ogre's ability to "block" corridors with their bodies (the app maybe is treating all monsters like Ogres in this regard)?

Who knows what else, as the App is a little bit behind... still missing Rogar's Hall, the third version of the Guardian Knight hero (from ROTDM), and Spirit Queen's Torment...

I wonder if it's because of the "Bard taking over after a hero dies" mechanic in the latter pack? All they'd have to do is have the app check to see if the Bard is in the party. If he's not, then a pop-up should appear when the first hero "dies" and asks if they want to have the Bard take over. If they click yes, the old hero vanishes and is replaced with the bard. Then they just have to make sure this substitution carries over if it's a two part quest (like 9 to 10 in Frozen Horror/MOTM/ROTDM). You'd have to literally change the party if you wanted the Bard to be in place for the next quest, because it wouldn't keep track automatically from one quest to the next.

Rogar's Hall could have a similar formula when a hero dies... give you the option to use one of the healing potions and check them off as you go, or just say no and that hero is dead and gone from the quest. Maybe you'd have to manually increase their BP from zero or it would force a roll of a red die and then enter how much you got each time? (and NOT do this when a hero died from remaining inside solid rock and not clicking "undo").

[SirRick]

The Druid is ok, having used her in New Beginnings and KK. She is not any better or worse than the Elf, but instead has some advantages and drawbacks that sort of equal out.

Some general comments and observations from using the Druid:

I would have to disagree with any notion of the Shapeshift spell being used on other heroes. Its true is doesn’t say you can’t, but the rules also don’t say your heroes can’t fly like Superman, but we know it would be wrong to assume the heroes could fly in such a manner. I don’t like the wording of the Mythic Tier version of the spell. I would personally allow diagonal weapons the bonus combat die. I feel the wording should be changed from adjacent to non-ranged attack. Maybe the AotOH version will offer some clarification. I agree ranged attacks should not get the benefit.

The Druid will not want to search for treasure, or disarm traps since Shapeshift is susceptible to hazards and traps. Rock Skin has the same handicap, so it makes sense to cast both spells on the Druid so she is less likely to lose either spell.

Using a Druid instead of and Elf in a standard party nets you two extra healing spells, since the Wizard could take both Earth and Water spells.

The big advantage of the Elf is basically equipment based, as the Elf can use the Elven Chain Mail and Elven Bracers, but until then they are fairly equal.

[Kurgan]

I assume it was meant for the Druid alone, but it's the use of "the hero" instead of "Druid" that throws me off, almost as if they were still having that generic vocabulary of the Elemental spells in mind. After all, those aren't specifically just for the Wizard, as the Elf can use them too (and the spell scroll versions can be used by ANY hero).

[LucaRocks]

What date do you guys think preorders will go up? I assume that's what the big surprise will be at the end of the month. Along with a sneak peek I hope.

My guess is Feb 29 as the leap year date can be a unique gimmick. With a possible March 31st release date.

[Kurgan]

That French convention is the 23rd-25. As the 23rd is a friday and we usually get updates that day of the week (not always) I'm guessing that will be the date they'll post about it (alternately they might wait until after, on the 26th which is monday but it seems like too good to pass up). If it comes out March 1st, that gives them a week for the main pre-orders. Then again it might be March 31st, or April 1st (no foolin'!). But having an announcement that on a future date pre-orders will happen seems a little more anticlimactic than necessary (companies have done worse of course and probably will continue to do so), anyway... that's my prediction.

The convention is a perfect chance for them to reveal, officially the back of the box (already spoiled by the ebay leak), but maybe even more than that. Surprised they haven't teased an unboxing already. Are we going to have to do a fan unboxing...? We will, you know.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

Yes I liked using the Druid, but as noted you have to protect her from traps, and not leave her open to attack, or you will constantly lose the spell when she gets hit, and healing up is a lot harder to do that the way Warlock recovers her spell by just offing a monster.
I usually go second with Druid. Use Barb or Dwarf to enter room, and then use Druid, walking on same squares as B or D.
Then next two cover the Druid.
I tend to have bad rolls with her.
I do ok with no spell active, but the minute I cast shape shift or Rock skin on her, I roll duds or get hit!
I use a bear miniature for her when in that form, a resin one from the guy in Spain.

[Kurgan]

My other prediction is that whatever the official release date is, someone will get it (and unbox it) early. Here's hoping! (the exception to this was ROTDM).

[wallydubbs]

The Druid is ok, having used her in New Beginnings and KK. She is not any better or worse than the Elf, but instead has some advantages and drawbacks that sort of equal out.

Some general comments and observations from using the Druid:

I would have to disagree with any notion of the Shapeshift spell being used on other heroes. Its true is doesn’t say you can’t, but the rules also don’t say your heroes can’t fly like Superman, but we know it would be wrong to assume the heroes could fly in such a manner. I don’t like the wording of the Mythic Tier version of the spell. I would personally allow diagonal weapons the bonus combat die. I feel the wording should be changed from adjacent to non-ranged attack. Maybe the AotOH version will offer some clarification. I agree ranged attacks should not get the benefit.

The Druid will not want to search for treasure, or disarm traps since Shapeshift is susceptible to hazards and traps. Rock Skin has the same handicap, so it makes sense to cast both spells on the Druid so she is less likely to lose either spell.

Using a Druid instead of and Elf in a standard party nets you two extra healing spells, since the Wizard could take both Earth and Water spells.

The big advantage of the Elf is basically equipment based, as the Elf can use the Elven Chain Mail and Elven Bracers, but until then they are fairly equal.

I've had a play through with the Druid before. Originally she started off with the Barbarian, Warlock and Male Elf as partners, but the Elf and Warlock both died in the Trial. They were replaced by a Wizard and Female Elf. The Wizard unfortunately died in Lair of the Orc Warlord due 2 brutal attacks by a Wandering Monster, was subsequently replaced by a Rogue. This group worked pretty well until the middle of Keller's Keeps, when the Rogue died (twice throughout the quests but Elixir of Life saved him once) and was replaced by a Dwarf.

Anyway the Druid survived and it's my opinion that she did so due staying out of direct combat, always attacking diagonally with a Longsword. With no Wizard, Lifeforce was indefinitely put into the Spell Ring.

Some of the points you've said I agree on, such as the Druid using caution when disarming traps or searching for treasure. The Shapeshift spell is the most difficult to regain out of the spells you can regain (Demonform & Inspirational Tale). In fact I've seen the Druid with 5BP take a spear trap head on so she could gain the full effect of the Pixie spells. But when her healing spells are depleted (sometimes better off used on other heroes), she's certainly not as advantageous as she is at the start of the quest.

However, though I respect your opinion, I do not find the Druid to be as powerful as the Elf. It's not just due to the Elven Bracers or Chainmail: it's primarily due to the Druid's starting weapon, limitations on armor, and the sheer variety of spells the Elf has to choose from.
Although the Shapeshift spell gives the Druid a +1 on attack and defence dice the overall caution and dependency of maintaining full health doesn't exactly even out. Sure, once you build up the Druid to a Longsword you can attack diagonally with 4 dice, which is clearly the greatest advantage you can have with the Druid. She's restricted from wearing metal armor, but Bracers and a Shield are not restricted: So her maximum defence dice (without Rock Skin or Potion of Defence) is 5. But upon losing 1BP she's back down to 4.
The Elf may not get 4 Diagonal Attack Dice, but he/she can hold onto 5 or 6 defence dice (Plate Mail, Borin's Armor, Elven Chainmail, etc.) even after taking damage.
Looking into the Barbarian vs. Knight, I've found that 3 Defence Dice is more advantageous then 3 Attack Dice. The greater the defence dice the better chance for survival in my opinion.
Maybe I'll need to try an Elf vs. Druid arena battle to double check, but I'm betting odds the Elf would win.

[LucaRocks]

That French convention is the 23rd-25. As the 23rd is a friday and we usually get updates that day of the week (not always) I'm guessing that will be the date they'll post about it (alternately they might wait until after, on the 26th which is monday but it seems like too good to pass up). If it comes out March 1st, that gives them a week for the main pre-orders. Then again it might be March 31st, or April 1st (no foolin'!). But having an announcement that on a future date pre-orders will happen seems a little more anticlimactic than necessary (companies have done worse of course and probably will continue to do so), anyway... that's my prediction.

The convention is a perfect chance for them to reveal, officially the back of the box (already spoiled by the ebay leak), but maybe even more than that. Surprised they haven't teased an unboxing already. Are we going to have to do a fan unboxing...? We will, you know.

Good catch! Did not know a Con in France was happening this month. What's the name? Maybe they will do a live stream like Lucca did?

I agree with everything you said. Hopefully it comes true!

EDIT: OK I found the name ... It's called Canne like the film festival. Don't see anything with Avalon hills name in the events calendar. Maybe HQ is distributed by another name in France?

[Kurgan]

https://www.meeplemountain.com/articles/the-board-gamers-guide-to-board-game-conventions/
Festival International des Jeux
Cannes Feb. 23-25, 2024

To me this doesn't make any difference if one hero could kill the other in single combat... as that's not really how the game is played (unless maybe you're using the EU rules I suppose, but this works against your goal of completing the quest!). The Druid doesn't have to be equally as useful in all situations as the Elf (or he would simply be the Elf). They can fight side by side or one can take the place of the other, and it will just be a different play experience. You certainly COULD design heroes that were purposely weaker in order to make the base game more challenging (the 1992 expansions certainly don't need any added difficulty for most players!) while others could be made super powerful to make the play experience easier. I don't think that's what they necessarily had in mind, but I wouldn't look at that as a reason never to use them. But modification is always possible. I was going to let the Druid use a helmet before we got that clarification in ROTDM (that was in the slim box all along I just didn't know because I didn't buy it retail in 2022) that it counted as "metal armor" too.