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Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Discuss Miscellaneous HeroQuest Merchandise not fitting into any of the above categories.

Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Pancho » November 13th, 2020, 4:36 pm

ajjohnsen wrote:
Pancho wrote:
Kurgan wrote:"Arrr! Didn't ye hear? Me whole old crew came ashore 'n' joined me! Now they be trained in thee ways of healin' and adventurin' for thee righteous!"

:lol: .
Seriously though, I think your approach is better. Scrapping the concept and making it into a Cleric, or perhaps a human bard. Changing the starting weapons and spells to make it a coherent, believable Hero class. Basically doing the work that Hasbro should of done in the first place.



I personally feel like the guest "creators" ported their favorite or current DnD characters into this game. I believe it was even said that the "creators" made the design and look of the character while someone else did the mechanics/spells

It's rather obvious the same person did the mechanics for all 3 since they all follow the same pattern of 1 really good spell and a way to get it back plus 2 other not as good spells

I'm aware the Orc Bard is a point of contention, almost like discussing politics or religion at work lol, but no amount of argument or reason or backstory in a quest book will ever let me accept the atrocity of this character. Maybe they could've had an Orc Bard that worked somehow, but the artistry of him is just plain terrible. HIs foot up the same way as the barbarian, the pirate look and feather cap and the hand over his heart while singing is just too much campiness for me

It feels like they did it because no one would ever expect it and I hate that mentality...people wouldn't expect it because it sucks and it doesn't fit the mold you're pouring into

I agree 100% with all of that.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » November 13th, 2020, 6:26 pm

So are people saying the fact that he's an "Orc Bard" (as opposed to just a bard), hence some kind of "freak" or "anomaly" that is the problem? I think mechanics wise its' fairly easy to see that he's just a Cleric. Doesn't have to be an Orc at all! I think the idea of a monster mercenary is a cool idea, and all the various things people have said about NPCs that come along and fight alongside you for a quest or two.

Good points have been made about having a unique character in the new designs as opposed to a "generic" "class" that anybody can imagine their guy in there.
It's implied that there are lots of Elves, Dwarves, Barbarians and Wizards (this isn't Middle Earth!) out there... but Mentor recruited you because you were the best... the most worthy to take up the crusade against Zargon and the forces of Chaos. In a way you're representing your respective traditions or nations. So in that sense an "Orc Bard" would be representing the vast number of Orc bards who have rebelled against their society and joined the cause. It isn't quite such a good fit. Warlock implies some kind of evil magician, so sure, you get a few bad ones that defected, but is there a big population of them out there that you just happen to be the most righteous or skilled among them? The Druid is an easier call here, because there's nothing implied (in the world of RPG stereotypes) that this is normally a "bad guy class" or a 1-in-a-million anomaly.

To make some of this work you have to imagine a modified universe. If you just stick to "this is a board game I'm just doing what's in front of me," it's easier to ignore. If you start to think about the world, lore, "history" etc. I agree it's a bit tougher.

So make them into a Cleric, a Ranger, (and the Druid can stay a druid).

The old Druid design was the time traveling aerobics instructor, the Buffy the Orc Slayer, teenager who went on the "Dungeons & Dragons ride" and is sweating to ye oldeies. Agree it's an improvement.

It's interesting that we're saying "make it more generic" but it can still look cool.
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Last edited by Kurgan on November 19th, 2020, 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Oftkilted » November 14th, 2020, 4:00 pm

I'd like to humbly point out that Orcish Bards are obviously part of the HeroQuest Lore as we have one in residence here at Ye Olde Inn. I submit that the Orc Bard character is actually direct homage to one of Ye Olde Inn's own. Official Spokesman Sjeng Ye Olde Orcish Bard.

While we all may think of 'The Bard' in regards to being one of the original HeroQuest bards, Sjeng is "Trait:Ye Olde Orcish Bard" ... and therefore having Orcish Bards in HeroQuest is absolutely not an issue, and individuals complaining otherwise obviously have not had an opportunity to see Sjeng's work.
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Sjeng » November 14th, 2020, 4:08 pm

About bloody time! A finer profession there is not, and it would be a crime to deny this to an orc, the bravest of warriors. Imagine the songs!
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » November 15th, 2020, 4:10 am

That settles it!


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Kurgan » November 18th, 2020, 7:31 am

A reaper bones miniature that might be useful... (77458 half-orc merchant)
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby j_dean80 » November 18th, 2020, 7:44 am

If you use the lore that orcs used to be elves, this character can work. He used to be an elf with a beautiful voice singing through the forest. Chaos began to plague the land turning the elves to orcs. He fought hard not to turn using his beautiful voice and knowledge of magic as a defense. He managed to escape losing only his looks. The only beings that could stand his site were pirates. They have hands for hooks and peg legs, why would they care how he looks? He knows all his brethren are no longer themselves and even tried to kill him a time or two. Now he wants paid and wants revenge. There may be more like him out there, well obviously none can match the beauty of his own voice though. *As he stares into a mirror.*
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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Oftkilted » November 18th, 2020, 12:06 pm

j_dean80 wrote:If you use the lore that orcs used to be elves [...]

Why do we need to even use Tolkien’s elf/Orc lore? We could leverage an “Elder Scrolls” style background. Where for the most part races aren’t necessarily good, or evil. (Though there are evil gods ...) They all just have their own agendas that change. (And dwarves/dwemer are actually a type of elf ... but that’s another issue entirely ...)

I’m personally going to leverage Ye Olde Inn’s resident Orc Bard, Sjeng, as inspiration.
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I'll give you my thoughts...!

Postby Kurgan » November 18th, 2020, 5:56 pm

We do we need to borrow a pre-existing lore? Elder Scrolls? Shmelder Scrolls! Dungeons and Dragons? Pungeons and Wagons! Warcraft? More like BOREcraft!

Warhammer? Now there's a quality lore to use... no arguments there. Just kidding. Seriously, how is it that some other franchise should be used when we can just MAKE ONE UP?

Feel free to skip this if you're already bored with my opinions on the subject, I'll understand. :mrgreen:

If you're still here, then please read on!

The idea that there is a race entirely of manufactured killers is awesome, I love it. Also, even in that scenario, you can still have a creature that rebels against his creator. Only this time instead of it being somebody made good who turns bad, it's somebody made bad who takes a different path.

Now then, a scenario in which the "noble orcs" are "finally freed" from the tyranny and join the fight against Zargon, is super cool. So is the tragic story of how the Orcs were finally destroyed for good. So is the story in which the good orcs finally had enough of the minority of bad orcs and helped stop them. So is the story of the couple of misfits who broke their Chaos programming and became good... maybe their rebellion will cause a catastrophic collapse within the Orc ranks, spell the beginning of the end of Zargon's rule?

As a side note, a "let's play as the bad guys" scenario would potentially be a lot of fun and could get really creative. The bad guys don't have to be "really good" but just play it from their point of view. "I just want to play as an Orc for a change" could mean you're a good guy Orc, or it could be you're a bad guy, it doesn't matter. I like the idea of temporary alliances with certain monsters (Monster Mercs, I'm liking the "Parley" more and more) which are cool precisely because they're unusual. If you have a peace treaty with the Klingons, I mean the Orcs, against the Undead and the Goblins or something, those faction wars can be cool too. You'll never lack an enemy to defeat (except in that final apocalyptic campaign wherein Zargon is finally brought to justice and an enduring state of peace declared throughout the entire "olde world").


People don't want to use Tolkien for some reason, even though without him we wouldn't be talking about "orcs" at all today. Tolkien's "races" are all very closely related it seems. But to me Zargon will always be that "angry old man with the white beard and red and black cape" (while "officially" it was always intended to be Mentor). In that sense he appears to me like Saruman. If you go with the "official oops we forgot to tell everybody outside the UK until now" line, where Zargon is actually Skeletor with a hood hiding his face (the "Witch King" in the Ralph Bakshi version of LOTR?) he reminds me of Sauron. So either way you can hook Tolkien in there and provide a nice little tie. But it's not a perfect fit. None of them are, not even Warhammer.


DO we have to accept the Orc Bard, as is, in order to be able to accept this Hasbro Remake? No. I hazard that most people who play the remake will barely know he even exists (if it's a bonus character that only backers of the Myther tier will ever see, they'd have to look it up on the internet). Will he be a mail away figure? How many would take advantage of that? Unless he's a figure written into one of the bonus packs (which again, most players will probably never actually see, much less play), why would he be a big deal?

Next, we don't have to accept him as written. You can modify him to your hearts content! I would turn him into a cleric if I use him at all. Maybe he's not an Orc. Maybe he's not a bard. Maybe he's both but fulfills a different role. Maybe he's not a Hero but an NPC or even a villain. I might use him as an Orc Pirate. I think a swashbuckling story of Pirates is a great possibility for a quest series adventure.
Bards in general don't interest me as Hero characters, but having a semi-humorous character for some adventure or two, might be a nice diversion. I wouldn't write it off entirely.

Chances are I'll stick with the original Four and the custom Heroes I've created, and that's it. If these figures get used (unless somebody was playing with me and begged to use them) it will probably be as NPCs or as inspiration for something else.

So you can certainly modify your "Heroquest Worldview" to accommodate the official presentation of this Hero, but why would you change the whole world canon to make them fit, when you can just change that character? You can like Hasbro's explanation (whatever it is, we'll probably find out next year) or substitute your own, or just ignore the whole deal.


If you want to use the Lore of Minecraft to explain the Orcs, that is your business.


My personal view is that Orcs are similar to humans. Great capacity for good or evil. Lots of examples of evil. Perhaps their corruption is cultural... most of the Orcs have been under the thumb of Chaos so long, they don't know anything different. Could there be misfits or rebels? Surely. And those would be killed so quickly we probably would never hear about it. But they worship Chaos, not necessarily Zargon. If their loyalty was ever challenged, or if Zargon was taken out of the way, they wouldn't turn into gentle sheep overnight. Could new leadership and cultural changes affect them? Surely. So they might have potential for good, but I think they've been corrupted for a long, long time.

I would compare them to my interpretation of the Ogres, who are truly mercurial. They start getting bored, or aren't getting enough to eat, they'll go do their own thing, they're selfish inherently. That's so unfair to the once noble Ogre society, right? So I have Ogre mercenaries. They make no bones about why they're fighting. Over time you may win mutual respect and they won't just see you as a potential meal when the action stops. But the Orcs, those who rule over them appeal to their baser instincts.

So could there be an Orc rebellion? Are you going to be the one to start it? I would love to see those stories. Lots of potential there in any case. But saying "it's not realistic that they're all evil" or "they're ruined if there are any good orcs or sympathy for the orcs" are two extremes I don't accept. This is fantasy fiction, and a game that's meant to be modded and left open ended for that purpose. If Hasbro comes out tomorrow and says "well actually, they were all under a spell and in the last quest you break it" or "well only 49.3% of the orcs were actually evil." That's fine and dandy, but I'll still let my imagination take the wheel. If you're worried that if Orcs aren't pure evil cannon fodder that we'll suddenly be out of mooks for adventurers to kill, think again. There are plenty of alternatives. And you can always have villains in a world where "most beings are mostly good most of the time." But if you want your world to be "everybody is an anti-hero" you can do that too. Why not?

Going back to the "manufactured killers" scenario. Why does Count Dooku have to control the clone army? Maybe the Empire makes the controversial decision to start breeding (?) their own Orcs? I'm pretty sure you could play the same faction against itself in the original Warcraft (borecraft!). Why does it have to be a "race" (? species?) thing? Or maybe the Orcs start getting sick of being bossed around and rebel against everyone (the time of the Orcs has come!).

Just like I'm fully in favor of somebody making a version of "the Trial" where you have to terminate the command of Sir Ragnar with extreme prejudice (for high treason against the Empire... he has become a very great threat), as well as supporting those who treat him as a Hero who was never killed and had ongoing adventures fighting for truth and justice long after the quest packs ended. I would play both of those campaigns and not bat an eye, because for me it's all about the game in the moment. I accept that the EU and the NA version are different, and so is the Japanese version. They're like different worlds or canons from each other. We could make up our own harmonization of them, incorporate whatever we want in there, D&D, Warhammer, Battlemasters, Advanced Hero Quest, DragonStrike, Zelda II. But what is one person's ideal harmonization might not be another's. If I'm writing a new Quest, I may really respect the person who wrote "Into the Sewers" or "The Dark Company" but they won't restrict me from making whatever I want as the mood strikes me. If I want to put Ryu from Street Fighter and Pokemon into my latest adventure, who is going to stop me?

Somebody could create a scenario in which Zargon was the good guy all along and Mentor was actually evil... or in which they were both the same person (shocker!). Let your imagination run wild. If it is well done and presented, I say let it happen. They can't cram down a "canon" on these created works (especially this late, with such an established community) and stop them from being enjoyed or made. :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:


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Re: Thoughts on the New Orc Bard Hero?

Postby Orc26 » November 19th, 2020, 1:49 pm

I kind of feel like all the different HQs are different iterations in the multiverse. Which we will number like a certain comic book company.

EU Heroquest = HQ 42
NA Heroquest = HQ 242
Japan Heroquest = HQ 931
Hasbro Heroquest = HQ 421861
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