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Avalon Hill's new rules that can be applied retroactively..

Discuss other HeroQuest expansion topics that do not fit into the above categories.

Avalon Hill's new rules that can be applied retroactively..

Postby Kurgan » Monday November 11th, 2024 4:28pm

So HeroQuest continues to add new official rules over time.

There is nothing that stops Zargon from ignoring new rules or applying old rules retroactively, but it's interesting to look back and see which ones have stacked up over time (in the new remake series from Avalon Hill). Some of these might make the first quests a little odd, but others might see them as enhanced, especially on repeated playthroughs with the same players (you are remixing your quests when that happens, right Zargon?).


Here is a list, if I forgot any please reply below:

(these first few were already introduced in the "classic" era of HeroQuest for the EQP/BQP released in North America):

Alchemist Shop:
Most expansions have an "Alchemist Shop" you can visit between quests in addition to "the Armory" to spend your gold on items you want. Some expansions (MOTM/FH) say that because most of the potions being sold are only usable by one hero, to add variety you can visit other Alchemist Shops for these heroes to have something more to buy if they want.

Selling Excess Items:
Between quests heroes are allowed to sell of any item available for sale at half the gold value (rounded down in the case of a dagger, so you get 12 gold for it).
Avalon Hill made formerly Alchemist Shop only (and a couple of items from the Treasure deck of the EU editions) potions into physical Equipment cards, so in theory those are sold back the same way.

Passing Items:
ANY item may be passed from one hero to another (except a Spell card, though Spell Scrolls are able to be passed), so long as it is the turn of the one doing the passing, and neither character is adjacent to a monster. Can you pass more than one item on your turn? Some would say yes, others would say only one per turn.

Large Monsters:
Characters that take up more than one square have the ability to attack any character that is in the surrounding squares, even if they are at a diagonal. So a "two square monster" would be able to hit all 10 squares surrounding them. A "four square monster" would be able to hit all 12 surrounding squares.

Dividing Up Treasure:
Zargon is urged to divide "large gold rewards" among surviving heroes to avoid conflict between players.

Monsters with Zero Mind Points:
Skeletons, Mummies, and Zombies are not the only monsters with zero mind points. Any such monster is considered "undead" and able to be destroyed by Holy Water just like those enemies. Also if a spell allows a victim of the spell to resist it with their mind points, a zero mind point monster is immune to this spell (as opposed to the EU edition in which these monsters had no defense against such spells).

Mercenaries:
[Edit: Technically there is no prerequisite to hiring Mercenaries except that it be a group quest that allows it and you can afford it! old comment: "Champions" in group quests may hire mercenaries to assist them. Except for ROTDM, these mercenaries cannot use other items (though they can have spells cast upon them) besides what they start with. They can open doors and roll white shields for defense, each taking their turn after the hero who hired them. If the hero who hired them dies, they can continue on without that hero. They have no other special abilities except the Scout, who can search for and disarm traps with the same skill as the Dwarf. There is a cost to rehire them that is the same as the hire cost on the next quest, and any gold given to a Mercenary cannot be recovered. If a hero dies and the only ally in their presence is a Mercenary, can the mercenary save that gear from being stolen by monsters so it can be given to another surviving hero (or a new hero in the next quest)? Other than losing the gold, this is up to Zargon. What is a "Champion"? Presumably it means anyone who has completed the Game System (or at least quest 14) or the 3 "solo" quests of certain expansions (Zargon can decide what it means). Can mercenaries have potions administered to them by an adjacent hero (just like an animal companion)? Zargon decides. MOTM says that any mercenaries "available to you" can be used in group quests, inviting the Ogre mercenary from ATOH or Elven mercenaries from ROTDM to be used potentially.

Mind Points (also amended):
A good character who is reduced to zero Mind Points goes into "shock" where they can only use their base attack of 1, base defense of 2, and move with 1 red die. Spells and artifacts can temporarily boost this. The later clarification was that anything that increases the hero's mind points instantly brings them out of the state of "shock" (rather than presuming the "shock save" could only be done at that moment if they possess a Potion of Restoration for example, or have to wait for the next quest to begin to be free of it. Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord have different rules for heroes who have mind points reduced to zero (KK: dead unless someone has Elixir of Life to save them, ROTWL "unconscious" and out for the rest of the quest).

Spiral Staircase safety:
A hero who stands on the stairs but doesn't go down them, is not necessarily in a safe space. If he attacks monsters from that space, monsters can attack him too. Apparently monsters can also stand on this square as well and potentially even occupy the same space (Zargon decides; the rules give the stairway as an example of occupying the same space exception similar to open pit traps).

Entrance/Exit Doors:
Some quests don't begin (or end) on the spiral staircase but instead with a closed door on the edge of the board. Special doors are given, but some expansions don't include these and so any closed door should be used. A hero who exits back through the door he entered is "leaving the quest" just as if he had run down the Spiral Staircase.

Multi-part quests:
Some quests exist (usually the 9th and 10th of an expansion) in which it is considered like one continuous long quest. Normally between quests heroes get to shop (visit Armory, etc) and their Body/Mind Points get recharged to their maximums, and any rewards are collected. Artifacts that have recurring but limited use are recharged. Spells that were used up are recharged and the Elf/Wizard can re-choose their spells. Heroes can change their turn order and mercenaries need to be rehired. With these multi-part quests, nothing changes automatically so they are to continue with the resources they have already. Surviving mercenaries continue on with the heroes, again as if it were one long quest. Sometimes heroes are required to return to the previous quest to complete the adventure, but any killed monsters, disarmed traps, or found treasures do not return.

Zargon has the final say:
Not everything is spelled out in the documents of the rulebook/questbook. When there's any doubt or discrepancy, Zargon has the final say, using his imagination and experience to find a resolution. Zargon of course also has oversight on how he will remix a quest that is being replayed or other modifications to the rules. Amended to say that Zargon's goal is to strive for a fun gaming experience for everyone.

Newer rules:

Unthreatened Movement:
When there are no monsters on the board, heroes have the option to use fixed movement instead of rolling red dice. A character who normally rolls 1d6 can move 4 squares. A 2d6 character moves 8. What happens when monsters appear in the course of your movement? (Some would say you should roll, and subtract the squares you already moved from that total, and if you've already moved that amount or less, your movement phase ends)

Animal Companions:
A modified form of mercenary, they can be hired "for free" in any quest when there are fewer than four heroes (you don't have to be a "champion"). Most of them cannot open doors, but are otherwise much like the human mercenaries. A hero may "administer" a potion to an adjacent animal companion, so long as neither is adjacent to a monster. These companions can't use or carry items unless specifically designed for them, and don't search for anything, having only the special abilities printed on their card, though spells could be cast upon them. Like other mercenaries if the hero controlling them dies, they can continue on without them. Presumably they couldn't hang onto gear if that hero died in their presence.

Multi-stage monsters:
Some "boss" (named character) monsters don't just die when they reach 0 BP but transform into another version of themselves with different stats/abilities. This can keep it interesting even in cases where the Heroes are very powerful or they just get super lucky roles while Zargon gets unlucky ones and would otherwise turn out as an anticlimactic final battle.

New Heroes:
Warlock, Druid, Bard, Knight, Rogue, Monk, Berserker, and Explorer. To date there are 8 new heroes that can be used. The idea is that you have up to 4 heroes (recommended 4, most quests are not made for less, see the "animal companion" rule) and if you add one or more of the new heroes you substitute one of the four. You're not supposed to have more than one of the same hero type (so not two Elves or two Druids) in a party at the same time. The exception to this is the Bard in Spirit Queen's Torment where if he's not in use, he takes over for the first hero who "dies." For purposes of character specific items, spells or abilities, the "Elf" is just the Elf hero (not the Rogue even though he is of Elven heritage), etc. Some quests may require modification if a specific hero is called for who is not in the party.

Alchemy:
While Alchemy was mentioned in the original game (and Potion of Alchemy remains in the Wizards of Morcar treasure deck), the new system presents MOST potions for the expansions up to this one, and many of them have gold values on the cards. Only one spell is adjusted in price (the Potion of Lesser Healing is cheaper), but all of the formerly "hero exclusive" potions for the Elf and Barbarian are now usable by any hero. While it's not written down in the booklet, Doug Hopkins posted on an official blog that he wanted Zargon to have the option to substitute this Alchemy deck in place of any Alchemist shops if they prefer. Jungles of Delthrak put its potion cards on "Alchemy" cards instead of Equipment this time, but with no mention of the Alchemy system. They could be incorporated, however one potion would have no use outside of the elements found in JoD, without modification by Zargon of course. The Alchemy system requires "re-agent" cards be inserted into the Treasure Deck, and the Alchemy Deck kept on hand, but otherwise it works anytime the heroes encounter an Alchemist Bench. Only the Wizard gets to craft these potions, either at the Alchemist Bench or between quests for free. ROTDM offers for sale between quests (at the "Underground market") a piece of Equipment known as a "Re-agent Kit" which is quite expensive. Non-Wizard heroes would use this (limited to 5 crafts). So other questbooks would require it be made available for sale, especially if the Wizard is not being used.

Turn Order:
The heroes always select their turn order at the start of a quest (or at the beginning of a multi-part quest). But they are now given the option each hero "round" (when it's not Zargon's turn) to change that order. In theory the heroes could take their turns in a different order each round of a game!

How a Hero Escapes Death (more options):
Heroes were formerly instructed that when they reached zero body points, they were "dead" unless they possessed a healing potion that could be used immediately to get above zero and be alive again. They were also instructed that if they possessed an unused healing spell (or equivalent artifact, one presumes) and had not yet done their action on their turn, that they could use this as an alternate way to save from death. Debate exists as to whether "used an action on their turn" means a Hero who dies on Zargon's turn can never use a spell or spell-like artifact that requires an action to use to save from death or if this is an exception to that (some spells may be used "off turn" in other expansions after all). Two other modes of play are given as options:

"Heroic." Good character reduced to 0 BP is "incapacitated" and gets a skull tile. So they can't save themselves at the moment of death (EXCEPT if they have an unused healing spell... regardless of if they used an action or not on their turn) but instead have to have an ally administer a potion to them adjacent or cast a healing spell upon them. If the round ends (it is back to their turn again) and they have not been healed, they die for real.

"Story." Same as above except no skull token. If there are no monsters on the board, all incapacitated characters return to life with 1 BP restored automatically. So the only way to get a total party kill in this mode is if all the good guys are incapacitated at the same time. Throughout I've been saying "character" with these, as its not clear to me that this applies to animal companions and mercenaries as well as heroes, but Zargon could decide that.

Ranged Monsters:
In the remake editions this is accomplished by using special miniatures, although in the classic era version of ATOH you just used your imagination. When Zargon has a skeleton, goblin, or orc that is called for, he can substitute a "ranged" version of the monster instead. The monster uses their standard attack at a distance, but only 1 attack die for adjacent attacks. As with the old crossbow debate, Zargon would decide whether the close diagonal squares count as "ranged" squares that can be hit.

Tunnels/Trap Doors:
When a character travels through one of these squares, and there is another character standing on the other square, instead of being "blocked" they forcibly "push" that character aside so only one character occupies the square. The character being pushed gets to choose to what available square they are pushed. Zargon decides in cases where there are no available squares as to how the other characters get pushed around (or if they are simply unable to go and are "blocked").


Further Rule Clarifications:

Unarmed Combat:
When a hero has no weapon, they are reduced to 1 combat die to attack. A hero with no armor is reduced to 2 combat dice for defense. The only exceptions to this are the Monk hero, who is assumed to have 2 combat dice for unarmed attack, and the Bard who is assumed to have 3 combat dice in defense (so long as he is not wearing metal armor and/or using a shield). Technically unarmed combat comes up in the Game System for one specific quest, but it is spelled out in later booklets as well and could apply to a hero who has returned to life without gear mid-quest (possible with the Elixir of Life) or if that hero has had their only weapon stolen or destroyed.

Helmet:
The card text now says it is "metal" for the purposes of whether certain characters can use it (this was not a concern in the classic era editions of the game since these restrictions did not yet exist).

Hand Axe:
Text was changed in the remake edition (via 2022 GS, First Light, and ROTDM) to say that this may not be used by the Wizard (as in the EU original).

Running out of Monsters (amended in First Light, MOTM, ROTDM):
In the GS & FL, Zargon is instructed that if a monster is called for and he doesn't have enough miniatures, that he should substitute a miniature of the same color. Presumably this means the new monster is actually used (rather than placing a Mummy and pretending its a skeleton). Other expansions don't adhere to a strict color distinction between monsters, and so Zargon is instructed instead to substitute a monster of "similar strength." In the case of "evil mercenaries" if he runs out (possible since the heroes can also hire these figures themselves) he can substitute another mercenary type or any monster at all (presumably of similar strength) that he has available.

Multiple attacks against the same target (amended in Rogue Heir of Elethorn Hero Collection, see also "Into the Northlands" digital quest, First Light):
If one character directs more than one attack on a turn against the same target, the victim still only gets one defensive roll. The attacker declares first which character(s) they are going to target with their attacks. After all the attack rolls are finished, the victim decides which of the attacks they will defend against, and the other is unblockable. This works the same way for both heroes and monsters.

Crossbow weapon:
It can hit the four "close diagonal" squares, not just the squares at a distance from your figure (with at least one square between you and the target). It would work the same way for monsters who have ranged weapons. The only exception to this ranged rule are daggers which are throwable and it doesn't say they can't be thrown adjacently (but what's the point? unless it's the close diagonal square you're aiming at!) and the Wand (Warlock only) which can hit any square, close or ranged.

[most of these come directly from First Light]:

Dwarf Hero:
In First Light, the Dwarf's starting weapon is a Hand Axe, rather than a Shortsword (coincidentally the Explorer from JoD who is a dwarf by heritage, also starts with a hand axe).

Orc's Bane:
This artifact can only hit the same Orc twice, not two adjacent Orcs. Does it have the same effect if the wielder of the sword is a Commanded hero and attacking the Bard (who is an Orc)? Zargon decides. It's unlikely an Orc ally would ever face a "Commanded" hero who possesses this artifact.

Courage spell:
It lasts only for a single attack. Yes, this means it can be "wasted" if the spell is cast but then monsters move out of line of sight before the hero has the chance to attack. No word on clarifying how other "as long as you can see a monster" abilities may be impacted by this.

Command:
Zargon takes control of a hero's movement and weapon attack. So he doesn't get to use potions or spells (even if they are attack based). He can open doors but not perform other sorts of actions as the hero while he controls them. Presumably this is also how the "Dominate" Dread Spell from ATOH remake was intended to work (except it lasts for only one turn rather than until the hero breaks the spell). Does death break the spell? Zargon decides.

Potion of Speed:
If a hero has more than one of these potions, they can only use one per turn. This is the only other potion that spells out such a limitation on the card (the other is Potion of Dexterity from MOTM and ROTDM).

Metal Armor:
Various new heroes are given restrictions on use of "metal armor." The Helmet, Chainmail, Platemail, and magical equivalents of these, are considered to be "metal armor." If an artifact or piece of equipment says the word "Armor" it is considered armor (or "Weapon" then it's considered to be a weapon, etc). Thus Bracers, Shields, and certain magical items are not considered to be "metal" armor and may be used by those restricted heroes.

Various artifacts can only be found in certain questbooks (while others are found a second time, and sometimes you are instructed "unless you already have it" but not always so duplicates could exist). In theory potions could be carried from one quest book to the next even if Zargon doesn't explicitly allow them to be purchased since they may not automatically be used up.

The Companion App is an interesting case as it introduces some options for use that could easily be incorporated into the physical game even without the app:

Advanced Skeletons:
All skeletons can now also attack diagonally.

Advanced Goblins:
All Goblins can now take part of their movement, attack, then take the rest of their movement.

Also there are options to give all monsters any combination of the following: +1 BP, +1 MP, +1 attack, +1 defense, +1 body. And also to "double" wandering monsters (this presents a problem for certain monsters who are limited in supply, and some Wandering Monster incidents are already for multiple monsters).

The Companion App is also far more strict with "Disguises" in ROTDM than the actual written quest booklet. In the App if you use not only the Monk's styles (which you might consider like magic spells) do you lose your disguise, but also if you use the Hearthkin Horn, Potion of Vision, Smoke Bomb, Caltrop, Airwalk potion, Wolfsbane Potion, or the Elven Cloak of Passage. In fact in the App if you "use special" for any equipment, treasure, or artifact, it nullifies your disguise, despite this not being so broad a limitation in the ROTDM questbooklet.

There are other weird things in the app but I chalk that up to the app, not necessarily intended rule clarifications. For example, Elven Cloak of Passage and Cloak of Shadows let you pass through white walls and closed doors but not stone blocks despite no special clue on the card text that would lead to that limitation while Pass Through Rock spell/scroll can!... Fallen Rock tiles are impassable by any means despite this never being mentioned anywhere in the text though they can be bypassed by going around them... treasure chests can be passed through unimpeded though presumably this is to better simulate how many people play which is to stand directly on a treasure chest to disarm it rather than in an adjacent square when there is a detected furniture trap... intangible furniture lets you simply walk through any furniture but this is clarified to have just been a feature for debugging or to simulate certain secret doors that move furniture since later expansions explicitly give abilities to pass through furniture which would not be needed if it was assumed none blocked movement and we already know they are intended to block line of sight generally... Elven Mercs can't use artifacts when Encarmine clarified that the questbook/card text doesn't say they can't as opposed to the human mercs where the text says they cannot use additional items,etc.... the app also insists that if you are in a room/corridor and can see--at any distance--a monster in the next room/corridor then you are unable to search due to "monsters present" though you can place another hero in the way to allow you to search but does not impose this same restriction when the door being looked through is a secret door! Some Zargons play it so that a monster who is "asleep" does not hinder searches while the App strictly insists that it does restrict it still.

The App does helpfully allow the Knight hero to use his Skills in corridors (the card text only mentions rooms) so long as the other conditions are met.

The App strictly limits the usage of certain items (that don't explicitly say "may be used only by the Elf" from MOTM) on them which could be a matter of debate. Some items do say "allows the Elf..." strongly implying that they are intended only for that hero (and not the Rogue of course, see earlier). So the Potion of Vision and the Elven Cloak of Passage for example can only be used by the Elf in the companion App, but Zargon might decide otherwise in his own game.
Last edited by Kurgan on Friday November 15th, 2024 11:29am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Avalon Hilll's new rules that can be applied retroactive

Postby SirRick » Monday November 11th, 2024 7:09pm

The mention of “Champions” hiring mercenaries is not mentioned anywhere in FH or MotM. So unless it is mentioned in RotDM or AtOH, I think this is a made up rule that a number of people use. Maybe it is from the old EU Wizards of Morcar?


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Re: Avalon Hill's new rules that can be applied retroactivel

Postby Kurgan » Monday November 11th, 2024 8:12pm

Seems I made that up,* good catch... Alas, I guess I was thinking of WOM (not yet remade by AH) after all. The concept of Champion was more well defined with specific benefits in the EU system vs. NA upon which the remake series is based!

Group quests let you hire mercs and group quests in those expansions are designed for heroes who are already equipped... "new" heroes being meant to play the solo quests beforehand. You could derive from the talk of champions that completing three quests makes you a champion who can hire mercenaries even though regardless of whether you played the solo quests or not, mercs can be hired from Quest 4 onward. Re-checked Frozen Horror and it does call you a champion for completing the 3 quests (or just introduces you, meaning the Barbarian, that way if you begin on Quest 4). But you wouldn't say a new player who contributed a new hero mid-campaign can't hire mercs until he's completed three quests...



* I am starting to sound like an AI chatbot. |_P


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