HispaZargon's Difficulty Calculation Model (HZ-DCM)

[Daedalus]

I think you got it right, Kurgan (I thought the same.) I believe what HispaZargon is talking about is retconning Phoenix Ogre stats to the EQP. That would make an interesting variant chart to look at.

[HispaZargon]

Yeah I think I misunderstood what you did there, thought you had upgraded the ATOH Ogres to EQP stats. My mistake.

I think you got it right, Kurgan (I thought the same.) I believe what HispaZargon is talking about is retconning Phoenix Ogre stats to the EQP. That would make an interesting variant chart to look at.

Hi guys, Kurgan is right. Previous charts were obtained considering the EQP stats for ogre warriors as the NA official ones so I considered such values also for ATOH ogre warriors. Ogre champions, chieftain and lord stats were derived from the EQP ogre warriors ones according to their relative stats differences shown in EU original ATOH questpack. I also applied the same criteria for other monsters like for example characters who were EU questbook says "this chaos warlock has the same stats as a Chaos Warrior", in that case I took the stats of a NA chaos warrior, not the EU one. I hope I have explained well.

The idea was having the picture with the most official NA stats as posible and, if they did not exist, I have used their relative ones according to the relative differences shown in EU questpacks.

I will post in an hour the chart with Phoenix stats as promised but I have not changed the EQP ogre ones since Phoenix did not it but if you want I could add some modification to them. Nevertheless I will also post my homebrew "stats changes suggestions" which of course consider changes for EPQ ogres too.

[Kurgan]

Where would you put the Japanese Game System on this list? (Converted to NA or not)

[HispaZargon]

Where would you put the Japanese Game System on this list? (Converted to NA or not)

Hahaha, oh yeah, I thought about it but the calculation model may be changed for that purpose since Japanese combat rules are different. I could make a conversion to NA stats and rules as if the Japanese questbook was a NA one, if you want. It would be interesting to see how difficult is compared with the rest, especially with the Game System questbook. I will do it, sure.

[Kurgan]

Yeah, a NA chart and an EU chart would be cool.

The problem with doing such good, complete work is that more demands keep getting made!

Sjeng I believe put up custom cards showing proposed reduced Monster stats for the EQP/BQP on the Inn. It doesn't cover the Ogre though could imagine it was 3 or 5 I suppose because I don't think anyone has created Ogre body points for EQP according to EU style rules.

[HispaZargon]

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Well, here are the resulting charts for ATOH and WOZ according to Phoenix's questbooks monsters stats, compared with the NA 'most-official' stats obtained as I roughly explained here:

1_HZ-model_v0100_ATOH_Questpack_Difficulty_Phoenix_Comparison.jpg

1_HZ-model_v0100_WOZ_Questpack_Difficulty_Phoenix_Comparison.jpg

You can observe in the first chart how much the total difficulty value dicreases quest by quest in ATOH using the Phoenix stats. Major changes are caused by the ogres stats but also some minor changes in Festral & Xenloth Chaos Warlocks' and other monsters stats are also slightly covered by the chart.

In the second chart cannot be observed too much changes since WOZ Phoenix's stats are quite similar to the already considered ones in the NA model. Only wizard BPs at final quest and orcs with bows are the minor changes (I have assumed that Phoenix also considers the orcs with bows as elite orcs)

These were the changes performed by Phoenix but I have performed my own homebrew changes to the stats of the monsters which I will explain in a next post and compare all together.

[HispaZargon]

Hi again...

Ok, so as I introduced in my previous post, I will share with you my homebrew modifications to the monsters stats already considered as NA official stats in the Difficulty calculator HZ-model.

First of all I will explain my homebrew stats changes questpack by questpack:


Game System / KK / ROTWL / POT / SQT questpacks:

No changes... I think the monsters stats for these questpacks in their NA edition are good as they are.


Against the Ogre Horde questpack:

For NA conversion, Phoenix decided to use for the ogres the same stats shown in the original EU questbook, but adding a fixed value for their Body Points: 3 BPs for Ogre Warriors, 4 BPs for Ogre Champions and Ogre Chieftains and 5 BPs for the Ogre Lord. I exhaustively checked the original ATOH questbook and I concluded that Phoenix was right, the values he selected are their most probable ones (I promise sharing this study in other thread).

From equivalence point of view with EU ogre stats, the Phoenix BP values are right but I think they could match better with the rest of NA monsters stats. I imagine the ogres as big creatures, with strong skins and muscles so 3 BPs for an Ogre Warrior are not too many compared with a NA Chaos Warrior or an NA Gargoyle which have the same... I honestly think an ogre may be stronger than those monsters so I gave them 4 BPs instead of 3. I also added 1 BP to the rest of the ogre types, giving a total of 5 BPs for Ogre Champions and Ogre Chieftains and 6 BPs for the Ogre Lord (same BPs as The Frozen Horror and Spirit Queen !!). I know these changes from Phoenix ones make the questpack a little bit more difficult than him but I think they are required in order to be coherent with the rest of NA monsters. I also noticed that my feeling about ogres BP values matches with the ones that Daedalus suggested here, which I agree.

Then, here are the difficulty results I obtained with HZ-model, compared with previous values:

1_HZ-model_v0100_ATOH_Questpack_Difficulty_HZ_Comparison.jpg

Not many difficult calculation changes resulted compared with Phoenix stats results but more coherent definition of ogres in my opinion.


Wizards of Zargon questpack:

One of the main problems I have always had with this questpack is The Finale Conflict. I think the final quest is quite anticlimatic and incoherent. You have there the four (revived?) Wizards, ok, but they have only 4 BPs instead of 5, mmm... ok, they could have been hurt in the previous quests... but, one moment, where are their elite forces?? They only appear in previous quests and they don't appear in the final combat? And what about the two empty chests? No reward?... I know you understand me...

Moreover, according to my HZ-model v.1.0.0, you can check in previous post how decreases the average quest difficulty quest by quest in WOZ questpack... it decreases? Yes... What I would expect from a questpack is almost having an increase of difficulty or at least a flat evolution, but never, never, never a decrease... so, that led to me to take some actions in order to try to correct it.

Then, I basically tried to check with my HZ-model if minor changes could help. I changed the wizards BPs to 5 in final quest and I also considered that all the Chaos Warriors, Skeletons and Orcs in final quest were elite forces instead of regular ones, so here are the difficulty results obtained, compared with previous values:

1_HZ-model_v0100_WOZ_Questpack_Difficulty_HZ_Comparison.jpg

You can check that obtained results are not a huge change but, at least the difficulty trend between quests is more or less flat and now it does not decrease... Additionally, the final quest now seems to be one of the most difficult ones of all the questpack, as it would be expected by the players so I think the changes have sense.


Mage of the MIrror questpack:

As you know, this questpack is extremely difficult since it has many monsters and vey strong monsters. I don't want to change the number of monsters from questpacks in order to reduce their difficulty since I think those quests are as their maps say but again, I think the stats of some monsters are incoherent or non 'realistic' so these were the changes I performed to them:

- Both Elven BPs reduced to 2, instead of 3 (Why an elf has more BPs than a human men at arms?)
- Elven Archer attack reduced to 3 Attack Dice, instead of 4 (Why a bow provides more Attack Dice than a crossbow?)
- Giant Wolf BPs reduced to 4, instead of 5 (Really has a Giant Wolf more BPs than an Ogre?)
- Ogre Warrior stats modified to be the same as the ones considered for Ogre Warriors in ATOH questpack (see above).
- Werewolf BPs reduced to 3 instead of 5 (I understand a Werewolf is an humanoid creature... a strong creature but not exactly as big as a Giant Wolf so it should have less body points than a Giant Wolf I think)

Then, here are the difficulty results obtained with those changes, compared with previous NA pseudo-official model:

1_HZ-model_v0100_EQP_Questpack_Difficulty_HZ_Comparison.jpg

Notice in the chart that the first three quests are the Elf solo ones, which have less difficulty than the rest. From there we could establish some kind of quest difficulty level what is supposed to be acchieved by only one hero, these are the interesting things and information that could be extracted by using this model.

The Frozen Horror questpack:

Like Mage of the Mirror, this questpack is also so difficult but in this case there is not too much margin to reduce difficulty by only changing the monster stats but we will see... these were the changes I performed to them:

- Ice Gremlin BPs reduced to 2 instead of 3 (I know this guys are bigger than a goblin, but sorry, they may not be stronger than a Fimir or a Mummy)
- Yeti BPs reduced to 3 instead of 5 (Yetis probably are strong but not too much tall, maybe as tall as a Fimir... but same BPs as an Ogre Champion and more BPs than a Gargoyle?)
- Polar Bear BPs reduced to 5 instead of 6 (6 BPs... the same as Frozen Horror or an Ogre Lord for a regular monster, really?)
- Scout Mercenary defence increased to 4 Defence Dice instead of 3 (its miniature has a shield so it should be the best protected mercenary) - Hire price also increased to 75 gold coins instead of 50.
- Swordman Mercenary defence reduced to 3 Defence Dice instead of 3 (its miniature has the same armour as the rest of mercenaries without any shield so it should have the same basic defence) - Hire price also reduced to 75 gold coins instead of 100.

Then, as you can imagine according to my modified monsters stats, I consider in my homebrew questpacks that all types of mercenaries can be hired with the same gold quantity: 75 coins.

And here are the difficulty results obtained with those changes, compared with previous NA pseudo-official model:

1_HZ-model_v0100_BQP_Questpack_Difficulty_HZ_Comparison.jpg

As in Mage of the Mirror, notice in the chart that the first three quests are the Barbarian solo ones, which have less difficulty than the rest.


The Crypt of Perpetual Darkness questpack:

(SPOILERS AHEAD)

I consider that Venim should be the strongest Nemesis of all the available questpacks so I increased his BPs to 10 and his Mind Points to 6. (official 5 BPs for Venim, the same as an Ogre, for a dragon sucks a little bit for me... Moreover, according to classic fantasy, dragons use to be very intelligent creatures so at least I better gave him 6 MPs, the same MPs as the Witch Lord, Fellmarak or the Storm Master, official 4 MPs for Venim is a low value in my opinion).

These changes do not modify too much the BQP questpack picture from Difficulty point of view but here is the comparison:

1_HZ-model_v0100_TCOPD_Questpack_Difficulty_HZ_Comparison.jpg

You can check now that the final quest is the most difficult one of the questpack according to the model, which looks better I think.


Final comparison chart in next post...

[HispaZargon]

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FINAL COMPARISON:

And then, here we have the final comparison between the three different stats: NA pseudo-official original stats (blue), Phoenix stats (orange) and HispaZargon stats (green), questbooks ordered from less difficult to most difficult according to their average difficulty level calculated by means of HZ-model v.1.0.0:

5_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_Comparison_in_D-Order.jpg

Here you can also check the chart's right hand detail. I have also added for reference a pink envelope line, roughly connecting the different green peaks, but ignoring the ones from quests #92 & #101 of EQP and BQP which are double-map quests that should be (in my opinion) splitted in two different quests in some way since completing them seems close to imposible with current quest maps... but I have not studied it yet how to do it:

5_HZ-model_v0100_All_Questpacks_Total_Difficulty_Comparison_Peaks_Detail.jpg

This pink line shows a gap at quest #83 so I think it suggests that increasing another 3000 or 4000 difficulty points the final quest of WOZ questpack would be posible in order to match with the quests numerical difficulty trend (according to my own homebrew stats, of course). It can be done... but it could make it quite difficult (including 2 or 3 more rooms full of monsters could be enough to achieve that quest difficulty increment).


MY THOUGHTS (MORE...):

Well, here is the data I can provide for the moment. I think this HZ-model could help to decide the playing order for questpacks in terms of difficulty. Fortunately, if you check my charts the questpacks average difficulty increases more or less at the same time as official story happens to the heroes.

Finally, of course my monsters stats modifications are just a personal suggestion in order to try using a more coherent NA stats for monsters and try to smooth as much as posible the difficulty curve through the last four questpacks, the most difficult ones and probably the ones less tested.

[HispaZargon]

Yeah, a NA chart and an EU chart would be cool.

The problem with doing such good, complete work is that more demands keep getting made!

Hi, Kurgan. I already had what you want...

I am glad to share with you and the rest of the Inn a quantitative comparison of the difficulty level, quest by quest, between American (NA) and European (EU) editions of the three questpacks which were released in the past in both continents: Game System, Kellar's Keep expansion and Return of the Witch Lord expansion...

Then, these are the charts I think you were looking for!

HZ-model_v0100_GS_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

HZ-model_v0100_KK_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

HZ-model_v0100_ROTWL_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

Previous charts were (again) obtained by using my own HeroQuest difficulty calculation equations that I called HZ-model v.1.0.0. This model is just a simplified prototype since it only covers the difficulty linked to how many monsters and traps are shown in the quest map and their types. This model does not consider any special events, nor heroes rewards, nor equipment/gold found, nor potential visits to shops, etc. I will add all those details step by step in future revisions, but I think the current prototype is enough mature to provide an interesting big picture of how playing difficulty changes between quests.

As said, the model is a prototype, but I confirm that the HZ-model is already covering the following details:

- Different monsters stats between NA and EU editions.
- Different quest maps between NA and EU editions in terms of different number of monsters, traps, etc.
- Different trap disable rule between NA and EU editions. (in EU rule the trap is automatically dissabled with a tool kit, in NA rule a die must be rolled with 50% success)
- ... and some other minor stuff.

I obtained these charts some months ago and one of the things that really catched my attention was that surprisingly (or not, who knows...), the difficulty evolution between both editions (EU and NA) has a very similar increasing slope, their trend lines resulted quite parallel!!

You can also check by comparing the trend lines of both gamming systems that average difficulty difference between NA and EU system is around 1100-1300 points for the three questpacks, which leads to have an average difficulty increment between EU to NA systems of 37% in case of Game System questpack, 32% in case of Kellar's Keep questpack and 23% in case of Return of the Witch Lord questpack.

Mentioned parallel behaviour between both systmes may be something fortuitous, but it happens in the three questpacks so I couldn't help but imagine and ask myself the following questions... what if those classic questpacks were originally designed (by Stephen Baker?) following some kind of difficulty rules which had been unknown for all of us for decades? ... and, did the designer use them to increase from a quantitative or similar standpoint the difficulty of NA edition compared with EU one? Well.... as you know imagination is free but who knows...

I hope do you enjoy it. Comments welcome of course.

Sjeng I believe put up custom cards showing proposed reduced Monster stats for the EQP/BQP on the Inn. It doesn't cover the Ogre though could imagine it was 3 or 5 I suppose because I don't think anyone has created Ogre body points for EQP according to EU style rules.

Thanks, I checked the values Sjeng posted here for EQP and here for BQP, but they were designed for EU edition of the game (EQP monster stats had all 1 BP). I have checked that, like me, he also reduced the Ice Gremlin BPs to 2. The Polar Warbear BPs was reduced by him to 4 (I reduced them to 5), but hte rest of BQP monsters stats I think were kept with no relevant changes there.

[HispaZargon]

Hi again,

Just for additional info, here you also have the same charts shown in previous post but only comparing the NA and EU quest maps, so now the EU maps are considered to have monsters and traps following NA stats and rules:

HZ-model_v0100_GS_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

HZ-model_v0100_KK_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

HZ-model_v0100_ROTWL_Questpack_Diffic_NA-EU_Comparison.jpg

Of course now the EU quests difficulty is increased but it continues to be lower than NA ones, as expected.

I guess the next posted charts will be about Japanese questpack difficulty...