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Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Discuss other HeroQuest expansion topics that do not fit into the above categories.

Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Lowery_79 » Wednesday May 1st, 2019 7:28pm

Hello,

I emailed three members of the forum about this topic, and didn't get to far. But one of them suggested that I post this subject on the open forum and see what answers I get back.

So here it is:

Rough rules for Mounted Combat:
1) A character mounted on a horse or a larger creature like a dragon will be long ranged. If the mounted character is on anything smaller than a horse, the opponent just has to announce if their attacking the mount or the rider.

2) Mounted characters just roll there basic attack, unless their in combat with someone who is smaller stature (like the dwarf). Then while mounted they would use 1 less attack dice to attack these characters. Though if a mounted character has a ranged weapon then they would roll all the combat dice for that weapon.

3) Mounted characters riding anything bigger than a horse (such as a dragon) must attack using long-range weapons or spells. Also if the rider is knocked off his mount or the mount is slain while they are mounted, the rider must take 2BP for falling damage.

4) Some mounted characters who's mounts have been killed or visa versa- will stay and fight. Others will flee once they have been separated no matter how many body points they have.

5) Mounted Characters can mount/dismount in stead of attacking.

Here are the Three Monsters that I wanted to add that use these rules:

Wolf Rider
Image
These wolves are Giant Wolves like the ones found in the Elf Pack and the pair would use the speed of the Wolf to move. I just put 3's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points. If the Wolves are not treated as Giant Wolves, then perhaps they could be closer to Battle Master stats for them. Move 12, 3 Attack, 3 Defend, 3 Body Points and 1 Mind Point.

Orc Boar Boy
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Boar to move. I just put 4's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points.

Note:
For both the Wolf Rider and the Orc Boar Boy, if it's rider gets killed or if their mount gets killed the "living part" of the team will stay and fight.

Mounted Chaos Warrior (or Champion of Chaos) Name still needs work.
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Horse to move. I used the stats of the Doom Guard for the rider though if it works better their stats could easily be made up of a normal Chaos Warrior so they are not to powerful. As of right know I set their Mind Points to 3, but I have no problem changing that either.

What do you guys think the stats for these Monsters should be?

Should any of these 3 get two attacks one for their mount and one for the rider?

I know I definitely want to give the Orc Boy a Charge option when their mounted but should they all get that? The charge could be:
Once during Zargon's turn the boar boy can "Charge" a victim rolling two extra combat dice (though that seems a little rough) If there are not 6 sq or spaces between them and their victim then they can not charge at that time. How do you feel a "Charge" should work?

Once I can get these Monsters stats worked out I will rework their monster cards and add an icon to the card. Then post them on the Forum.

Lastly these Monsters are meant to be used on an open Matt like a battlefield or a stretch of land the the Heroes must cross to get from one place to another.
I can post pictures of that idea in another post soon.
Last edited by Daedalus on Tuesday May 4th, 2021 5:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: moved topic from General Heroquest Discussion room
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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Anderas » Sunday August 11th, 2019 3:51am

I guess you didn't get a lot of answers as there is no mounted figure in the box.

Except for outdoor quests, I also have difficulties picturing a mounted hero balancing along Grin's Crag or riding through a door.

That said, here are many outdoor quests floating through the forums, so for those it might indeed be interesting.


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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Figomurphy » Monday August 12th, 2019 6:47am

I like the idea of goblin spider riders in dungeons.


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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Uncle_Elvis » Monday August 12th, 2019 10:33pm

I feel these would really need to be on a modified field, out doors, as others have posted. As a dungeon crawler, the biggest mounts our heroes would encounter would probably be squigs. Maybe some type of oversize spider.

As for the stats themselves, the defend should probably be higher. Defense is not just how tough a character is, but how tough to hit it is. A skilled mounted goblin would be tricky to hit. Of course the trade off is the lack of body points versus a mounted chaos warrior. Big guy, easy to hit, but a damage sponge.


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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Daedalus » Tuesday May 4th, 2021 5:36pm

Lowery_79 wrote:Hello,

I emailed three members of the forum about this topic, and didn't get to far. But one of them suggested that I post this subject on the open forum and see what answers I get back.

Can some late, quickly conceived comment help? Let's find out . . .

Lowery_79 wrote:So here it is:

Rough rules for Mounted Combat:
1) A character mounted on a horse or a larger creature like a dragon will be long ranged. If the mounted character is on anything smaller than a horse, the opponent just has to announce if their attacking the mount or the rider.

1) . . . horse or larger creature like a dragon > large monster (from BQP, EQP.) . . . will be long ranged > sits diagonally from adjacent figures.
I'd simplify and shorten the last sentence > A character must announce if he is attacking the mount or rider.

Lowery_79 wrote:2) Mounted characters just roll there basic attack, unless their in combat with someone who is smaller stature (like the dwarf). Then while mounted they would use 1 less attack dice to attack these characters. Though if a mounted character has a ranged weapon then they would roll all the combat dice for that weapon.

2) I feel this rule isn't needed--KISS! My rationale? Dwarves block LoS and fight from a pit trap the same as other Heroes.

Lowery_79 wrote:3) Mounted characters riding anything bigger than a horse (such as a dragon) must attack using long-range weapons or spells. Also if the rider is knocked off his mount or the mount is slain while they are mounted, the rider must take 2BP for falling damage.

3) . . . anything bigger than a horse(such as a dragon)must attack using long-range weapons or spells > large monsters must attack with weapons diagonally, from a distance, or cast spells.
I‘d drop the second part about taking automatic falling damage. If killing the mount results in the Goblin or Orc losing 2 BP and dying, why have separate.Body Points? Perhaps you are thinking about player characters. While I'm still in favor of dropping falling damage, it could be implemented like falling in a pit trap, where the character rolls a combat die, trying not to roll a skull or suffer 1.BP of damage.

Lowery_79 wrote:4) Some mounted characters who's mounts have been killed or visa versa- will stay and fight. Others will flee once they have been separated no matter how many body points they have.

4) My opinion is all mounts and riders should only function as one monster together. This simple mechanic fits the spirit of Hero Quest monsters better than extra rules which can slow down combat. But hey, it's your game, you know what it should be better than anyone.

Lowery_79 wrote:5) Mounted Characters can mount/dismount in stead of attacking.

5) Alternatively, mounting/dismounting could be part of movement, kinda like climbing out of/jumping a pit trap. That would cost just the one.square to move into the mount's space.

Lowery_79 wrote:Here are the Three Monsters that I wanted to add that use these rules:

Wolf Rider
Image
These wolves are Giant Wolves like the ones found in the Elf Pack and the pair would use the speed of the Wolf to move. I just put 3's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points. If the Wolves are not treated as Giant Wolves, then perhaps they could be closer to Battle Master stats for them. Move 12, 3 Attack, 3 Defend, 3 Body Points and 1 Mind Point.

A wolf should be faster than a Goblin. The Battle Masters stats are best. Stephen Baker wrote them, after all!

Lowery_79 wrote:Orc Boar Boy
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Boar to move. I just put 4's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points.

Note:
For both the Wolf Rider and the Orc Boar Boy, if it's rider gets killed or if their mount gets killed the "living part" of the team will stay and fight.

I'd set the Mind Points at 2, as the Orc rider is in control.

Lowery_79 wrote:Mounted Chaos Warrior (or Champion of Chaos) Name still needs work.
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Horse to move. I used the stats of the Doom Guard for the rider though if it works better their stats could easily be made up of a normal Chaos Warrior so they are not to powerful. As of right know I set their Mind Points to 3, but I have no problem changing that either.

What do you guys think the stats for these Monsters should be?

Champion of Chaos: Mv 10, At 5, De 5, BP 5, MP 3 (Battle Masters version)
Mounted Chaos Warrior: Mv 10, At 4, De 5, BP 4, MP 3

Lowery_79 wrote:Should any of these 3 get two attacks one for their mount and one for the rider?

The Wolf Rider might be more interesting with a 2/2 attack. Low powered, but dangerous in rushing numbers.

Lowery_79 wrote:I know I definitely want to give the Orc Boy a Charge option when their mounted but should they all get that? The charge could be:
Once during Zargon's turn the boar boy can "Charge" a victim rolling two extra combat dice (though that seems a little rough) If there are not 6 sq or spaces between them and their victim then they can not charge at that time. How do you feel a "Charge" should work?

I I think the Boar.Rider should start out with just three attack dice (like a regular Orc), not four. However, five attack dice for the charge should be Waugh-a-riffic! As for the movement requirement, simply starting from a non-adjacent space with LoS works for me. If you must have a longer minimum run, I'd think half the movement should do.
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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday May 4th, 2021 7:18pm

When fighting mounted enemies (assuming the Hero isn't mounted also, but maybe even then) shouldn't pikes be more effective (Halberd, Spear... maybe even a staff?)? Maybe attacking them this way would gain an extra combat die (or use a higher probability die like a German Black Die).

I was thinking about horses breaking their legs in pit traps but I guess you could say the mounts just leap right over them to keep it simple (monsters don't trigger traps as it is).

Mounted archers sound interesting. Maybe it is truly time for a "jousting mod" for the Heroes... giving them mounts as well!
Jolly good. And nice to have some Battlemasters examples to draw inspiration from.


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Re: Mounted Combat Rules and Three Monsters that are mounted

Postby Davane » Tuesday May 4th, 2021 7:57pm

Lowery_79 wrote:Hello,


Hello! Do I know you? Daedalus beat me to responding like this, so I figured I'd one-up him here. Don't be surprised if Kurgan turns up and responds with quotes for EVERY SINGLE LETTER. Seriously, though, hello and welcome to the forums if I haven't said it before. I might have done, but there's nothing wrong with being even MORE polite, right?

Lowery_79 wrote:I emailed three members of the forum about this topic, and didn't get to far. But one of them suggested that I post this subject on the open forum and see what answers I get back.

So here it is:


Always sounds like a good idea. That's what these forums are for, and since I have been going through a deep dive of both the UK and US English Editions of the HQ rules, I may be able to provide some extra insights here.

Lowery_79 wrote:Rough rules for Mounted Combat:


Okay, there are currently no official rules for Mounted Combat as far as I know, as HQ is predominantly set in a Dungeon Environment, and there's very little call for Mounted Combat in that environment. The few outdoor areas in HQ are largely house rules or simply scenic backdrops.

That said, I will refer you to some old D&D advice. Basically, whilst low level Heroes generally focus on close-knit dungeons, where the tightness of the dungeon walls and the claustrophobic environment serves largely in their favour, higher level adventures often include more open spaces, even underground. This allows for longer ranged combat, and both monsters and heroes are likely to have area of effect abilities, that may take up more room than a simple combat in a small room. Thus, you may find that these rules are better suited by ignoring the HQ board entirely, or considering it a simple battlemat upon which these encounters can take place.

However, aside some gameplay concerns, and some thematic concerns, there's no real reason why the HQ rules can't be adapted for Mounted Combat if you wish, and that's how I will be responding going forwards.

Lowery_79 wrote:1) A character mounted on a horse or a larger creature like a dragon will be long ranged. If the mounted character is on anything smaller than a horse, the opponent just has to announce if their attacking the mount or the rider.


Okay, it's worth noting that in wargames, a horse is often considered to be as tall as a man, and twice as long, so a mounted rider is nearly twice as tall as a standing man. In contrast, a dragon and other larger creature can be many more times bigger, to the point that the rider themselves are often quite negligible, thus I would definitely consider treating these two cases separately, so that something riding anything larger than a Horse is considered differently from those riding anything Horse sized or smaller.

I'm not sure what you mean by "long ranged" here, but I am going to assume that you mean that such large creatures can only be attacked with long-ranged weapons, as they are out of range of melee based ones. I'm not sure if this is wise, given that heroes have a range of melee weapons (including "reach weapons" that allow for diagonal attacks), and very few ranged attacks.

Going with what you have already, I would suggest that characters are able to target riders based on their weapons and the size of the mount as follows: Anything up to Horse sized: Any Weapon; Horse-sized: Any "reach" weapon (allows diagonal attack) but they must be orthogonally adjacent to the rider; Anything larger than Horse sized: Ranged attacks only. If they have the right weapons, then they can target the riders, else, they can ONLY attack the mount. You can have even more complex rules for flying mounts, but for now, it's best to assume all mounted characters must be grounded.

Lowery_79 wrote:2) Mounted characters just roll there basic attack, unless their in combat with someone who is smaller stature (like the dwarf). Then while mounted they would use 1 less attack dice to attack these characters. Though if a mounted character has a ranged weapon then they would roll all the combat dice for that weapon.


You might want to stick with the rules for target mounts and weapons, as it makes little sense that someone on Dragon-back can just as easily fight another character on Dragon-back, especially when grounded. That said, you might want to allow that riders mounted on Horse-sized mounts are able to attack unmounted characters using melee weapons without "Reach", but must take a penalty equal to half their Attack Dice (rounded down) to do so. This would help justify why characters on Horse-sized mounts prefer "reach" weapons in general.

In general, without special training, attacking with a ranged weapon whilst mounted is particularly hard, although the ranged weapons in HQ are generally suitable for doing so. The main issue would be with bows and longbows, and anything bigger than a Short Bow might require a penalty of -1 AD to attack while mounted. You could assume all Monsters are trained at making ranged attacking whilst mounted if they are armed with such weapons though. Of course, you might want to apply the -1 AD penalty to any attacks with a ranged weapon, and a penalty equal to half AD (rounded down) for bows and longbows. Attacks with spells are unaffected, because it's magic, and Wizards have it hard enough as it is!

Lowery_79 wrote:3) Mounted characters riding anything bigger than a horse (such as a dragon) must attack using long-range weapons or spells. Also if the rider is knocked off his mount or the mount is slain while they are mounted, the rider must take 2BP for falling damage.


See above for possible ranged attack modifiers. In general, the issues with mount size and making ranged attacks whilst mounted are different, so you may wish to use a combination of these as desired.

As for rider falling damage, I would argue that 2 BP is reasonable for anything bigger than Horse-sized, as this would still kill most normal monsters, so only champions or monsters with 3 or more BPs are likely to ride large mounts and live to survive a fall when the mount dies.

I would argue that the same applies to any rider on a Horse-sized mount, but is reduced to 1 BP damage, which is enough to kill the weaker monsters. Some of the larger, tougher, and more elite monsters may fall off Horse-sized mounts and survive, but basic ones with only 1 BP won't.

In both cases, if a monster has less BP than falling from their mount, then you might want to consider treating the mount and rider as a single monster instead, with the tougher of their BPs used to represent the whole model.

Alternatively, you may want to allow a check as if jumping across a pit to determine whether or not a rider takes damage when falling off their mount. In this case, falling off a Horse-sized mount works exactly like jumping a pit, and falling off a larger than Horse-sized mount works like they are jumping a pit TWICE, taking 1 BP damage for each Skull rolled.

Lowery_79 wrote:4) Some mounted characters who's mounts have been killed or visa versa- will stay and fight. Others will flee once they have been separated no matter how many body points they have.


This is best being a trait that is assigned to the monster, and it is often better to treat the mount and rider as a single model. Out of interest, it's worth noting that many armoured knights had immense upper body strength, but would often lack the lower body strength required to fight in full armour on foot, especially after a life-time of hard riding. Many weaker creatures are therefore likely to flee if dismounted, even if they survive, although given their weakness, they may often be the kind of monsters that lack the BP to resist falling from a mount in the first place.

Lowery_79 wrote:5) Mounted Characters can mount/dismount in stead of attacking.


Basically, it takes an action to mount or dismount. You MAY want to change this to allow it to replace Movement rather than an action, especially if the mount is capable of moving independently. You may also wish to have controlling a mount replace movement, rather than an action. This is particularly useful if you allow for a "move" action, in which a Hero can move instead of attacking, and thus can potentially move twice during their round. This would allow a character to move to a mount and mount it, or dismount from a mount and move away in the same turn.

The same can be achieved in the standard HQ turn format of move and action, or action and move, of course, but the delay in attacking might deter some players from mounting or dismounting in combat, instead preferring to "fall off" if they can spare the BP damage.

Lowery_79 wrote:Here are the Three Monsters that I wanted to add that use these rules:

Wolf Rider
Image
These wolves are Giant Wolves like the ones found in the Elf Pack and the pair would use the speed of the Wolf to move. I just put 3's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points. If the Wolves are not treated as Giant Wolves, then perhaps they could be closer to Battle Master stats for them. Move 12, 3 Attack, 3 Defend, 3 Body Points and 1 Mind Point.


How about both?

It's worth noting that Goblins ride wolves (smaller than Horse sized), but the Giant Wolves (or Worgs, perhaps) are more likely to be Horse-sized. The Giant Wolf Riders are more akin to knights and cavalry, thus aren't likely to stick around if dismounted, but those riding Wolves might decide to do so.

Thus, you could have Wolf Riders (M: 12, A: 2, D: 2, BP: 2, MP: 1) - A fast unit that are basically as powerful as Orcs, but slightly tougher, and will stick around to fight.

Then you have Giant Wolf Riders (M: 10, A: 3, D: 2, BP: 2, MP: 1) - A slower, but harder hitting, Goblin knight, that will not stick around to fight.

Lowery_79 wrote:Orc Boar Boy
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Boar to move. I just put 4's across the board for Attack, Defend and their Body Points. I'm not sure were to start by giving the pair Mind Points.

Note:
For both the Wolf Rider and the Orc Boar Boy, if it's rider gets killed or if their mount gets killed the "living part" of the team will stay and fight.


Boars are Horse-sized mountains, and as such, you are looking at an even tougher beast - (M:10 A: 3, D: 3, BP: 3, MP: 2). It's worth noting that boars are both tough and stubborn, so they should be harder to kill, but it can be a toss up whether the Orc or the Boar is the most ferocious thing in this package. That means you are basically getting a faster and tougher (not stronger) Orc, and they will most definitely stick around to fight.

Lowery_79 wrote:Mounted Chaos Warrior (or Champion of Chaos) Name still needs work.
Image
The pair would use the speed of the Horse to move. I used the stats of the Doom Guard for the rider though if it works better their stats could easily be made up of a normal Chaos Warrior so they are not to powerful. As of right know I set their Mind Points to 3, but I have no problem changing that either.

What do you guys think the stats for these Monsters should be?


A good name, which already exists in Warhammer, is that of Chaos Knights, which are mounted Chaos Warriors/Champions of demonic steeds. Bear in mind that a LOT of Chaos Knights are fused into their Armour, and many are often fused onto their mounts as well, so most would NOT stick around to fight if their Steed is slain, since they are as much part of their steed as they are rider... - (M: 8, A: 5, D: 5, BP: 4, MP: 3). They are faster, and both stronger and tougher than their normal Chaos Warrior brethren, but they are almost certainly Horse-sized at the very least.

Lowery_79 wrote:Should any of these 3 get two attacks one for their mount and one for the rider?


It really depends on the mount, to be honest, but as all three classes of rider have fairly vicious mounts, there is certainly an argument for allowing an extra attack per combo, especially if they charge. Thus, you might want to consider that if the monster moves 4 or more spaces in their turn, they get an additional attack.

Lowery_79 wrote:I know I definitely want to give the Orc Boy a Charge option when their mounted but should they all get that? The charge could be:
Once during Zargon's turn the boar boy can "Charge" a victim rolling two extra combat dice (though that seems a little rough) If there are not 6 sq or spaces between them and their victim then they can not charge at that time. How do you feel a "Charge" should work?


An additional attack when charging seems powerful enough, especially if you are going with an improved Attack value over normal Orcs (two attacks at 3 dice each, means a total of 6 combat dice of attacks when charging). If you feel like they still need a little more oomph, consider an Orc Boar Boyz variant which work like Orc Knights, and get +1 AD when they move 4 or more squares (in addition to an extra attack), for a total of two attacks at 4 AD each, for a total of 8 combat dice of attack.

Alternatively, consider that instead of Knights that gain an extra attack whilst charging, they could be "Lancers" which gain +1 AD per square for every additional square over 4 they move (+1 per two additional squares moved for Orcs and Goblins, rounded up for Orcs and rounded down for Goblins). That means that an Orc Lancer with 10 movement could gain +1 AD if they move 5-6 squares, +2 AD if they move 7-8 squares, and +3 AD if they move 9-10 squares, and a Goblin Lancer could gain +1 AD if they move 6-7 squares, +2 AD if they move 8-9 squares, +3 AD if they move 10-11 squares, and even +4 AD if they move 12 squares. Such monsters pack a punch of given the space, and will almost always force Heroes to close the gap first or face potential death. A Chaos "Lancer" would gain +1 AD at 5 squares, +2 AD at 6 squares, +3 AD at 7 squares, and +4 AD at 8 squares. Combine these with the base AD of these monsters, and you could end up with a total of 6 AD for the Orc and Goblin Lancers, and a total of 9 AD for a Chaos Lancer!!!

Lowery_79 wrote:Once I can get these Monsters stats worked out I will rework their monster cards and add an icon to the card. Then post them on the Forum.

Lastly these Monsters are meant to be used on an open Matt like a battlefield or a stretch of land the the Heroes must cross to get from one place to another.
I can post pictures of that idea in another post soon.


I kind of gathered this, as you would need to have such open spaces to make the most of their movement and attacking abilities. Of course, even a small unit of mounted monsters could wreck a party, especially if they are "lancers." They might be more suitable in smaller numbers (1 or 2), possibly guarding a long corridor to a vital room. They wouldn't be as formidable in some tighter spots, but you might prefer using the Knights variant, especially if charging gives an extra attack rather than extra AD, or you decide the added attack is because both mount and rider are attacking (rather than charging), which is essentially the same as saying that they do NOT need to move to activate their charge bonus.
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