Equipment progression. Again.

[Anderas]

Sometimes you have to think a lot... well I have to think a lot, use a lot of numbers, just to get back to some long since used stuff.

My "Problem"... well, let's rather say, favorite idle time waste during my visit at my parents, was the equipment progression in Heroquest.
For my personal feeling, there are several issues connected to it.

There is not enough cards for a long progression in the base game
There is a whole lot of opportunities wasted seeing what you can do with the dice
The behavior of the current equipment is strange in places

Last point first: What's so strange?
Basically you have weapons with three strengths:
2 dice, 3 dice, 4 dice.
stepping up from 2 dice to 3 dice is 50%.

50% is the difference between me and the world's biggest man.
50% is also die difference between my 3 year old daughter and my wife. hope she doesn't read it.
Or if you talk about fight weight, 50% is about the difference between me and Vitali Klitschko.

It's too much.
But what's good?
From my roleplaying sessions i remember that, in a D20 system:

Stepping up from 5 to 6 (+20%) was highly appreciated.
From 10 to 11 (10%) was... well, nice.
Stepping up from 19 to 20 (around 5%) was useless.

Boeing offers their airplanes in 20% size steps.

So i took my time and tried to find a way to have steps way smaller than 50%, somewhere close to 20% and found, for the attack dice:

2 whites
1 white 1 black die
2 blacks
3 whites
3 whites 1 green
3 whites 1 black (here we are stronger than the battle axe)
5 whites
6 whites.

Basically you have a slower take off from the 2 whites, but afterwards it speeds up and it even jumps the 4 white die step. With 8 weapon steps there is largely enough space to level up for rpg leaning heroes. What was i happy with myself!

In theory.

Basically, it was unnerving that it meant you don't take off from 2 dice. I found that the game in general works best with 3 dice on hero side, if the quests are adapted for 3 dice. Also i found that 6 dice are too much for my taste.

So i got to this list instead:

2 whites
3 whites
3 whites 1 green
3 whites 1 black (here we are stronger than the battle axe)
5 whites

One afternoon of work and i came nearly back to the original system.
I wouldn't exclude the possibility to offer a weapon with two black dice somewhere, not yet. Maybe if the Wizard receives a 2-dice-restriction, he will be happy to use a 2-black-weapon.

What i really like about the colored dice is that they offer little nice flavor changes if you want. The yellow one is not really stronger in attack than the white, but slightly more piercing, adding only a small percentage to the total combat result - but feeling different.

Besides, before thinking it really through, i did the same to the defense system. Adding some intermediate steps and removing them again.
There was as addition

a leather helmet (add a black die, cost 60 Gold)
a buckler (add a black die, plus some extra function if you used the otherwise quite useless rapier, 60 Gold)
a tower shield (adds a green die, 250 Gold)

for example... but i am obviously no more convinced.

[cynthialee]

It is a good plan...if you have the dice for it. Getting your hands on the variant dice can be spendy.

It is a pitty the weapons listed rules mess some stuff up.
Like the rapier....that is the last sword you want in the hands of a skilled enemy.
A staff makes for a super deadly weapon in the hands of a skilled warrior. (I had a friend in my youth who fought tournaments and staff was his weapon. I saw him take out 7 competent warriors in 2 seconds!)
The spear was typically utilized with a shield and employed with a single hand.
Athletic men with well fitted plate armor can do cartwheels and run in the armor.

[Count Mohawk]

I've often thought that 4 dice being the maximum for Heroes' attack leaves the armory system rather lacking. There's basically nothing between a starting Hero's weapon (the Shortsword) and the three "best-in-class" weapon types (Battle Axe for power, Crossbow for range, Longsword for versatility). Like, does any Hero ever buy a Broadsword? I doubt it. So in my opinion, increased granularity is definitely the way to go.

Also, if you want to encourage the Heroes to level-up their gear over the course of many adventures, you have to make sure the difference in cost in between levels is significant enough that "saving up" to skip a level is less feasible (due to the increased probability of death from higher-order monsters if they keep their current weapon), or that buying weapons out of order is impossible ( by dint of the better weapons not being available to purchase until X number of quests have been completed). If you go with this second option, it can be tied into either the Quest storyline progression, or into the Heroes' "rank".

And don't forget that a weapon's strength is not solely measured by its Attack dice! Attack range (Melee < Diagonal < Extended < Line-of-Sight) and special effects (like the Sword of Zalmir, which is a Shortsword that deals double damage to Undead figures) also affect weapon tiering. One of my favorite custom weapon designs, for example, is the Sledgehammer, which only rolls a single Black die to attack but has the passive effect "Damage +2" when at least one skull is rolled, which puts it roughly on par with the Battle Axe despite the high miss rate.

[Anderas]

Ok, i finished my range of 1-die-weapons and 2-dice-weapons in 44mmx67mm print format (Zombicide size). There is a higher resolution variant available, just by clicking on it you get to my Flickr account.

I could need some good background art for the dagger and the whip; and the sling is entirely copyrighted by someone else, so here i could really need some help. I am not very talented at drawing.
I removed the gold values on the cards. I will have them on a separate sheet like Slev - so if a Weapon gets too popular or is never bought, i can change the prices.


Those first four weapons are mainly so that i can add them to my treasure deck. They shall cost between 20 and 80 .


I think if i ever ever in my life update the sling again, i will use GimmeYerGold's picture from his 225 edition.


A little bit stronger already:

GimmeYerGold has a really cool picture for that in his 225 edition. Currently i am thinking if i should just copy it.

Here is my offer of two-dice-weapons; 80 to 150

Yes. That flail is new.

I hope that separates the hand axe sufficiently to be worth a second look. The two yellow dice make it better than the short sword or the Spear, by roughly 10%.
wagenerandi, auf Flickr
The Spear is the most expensive of the three weapons, as I regard the diagonal ability to be VERY valuable.

And some flavor add on. The torch is less good in attacking, super for treasure hunting, but to be discarded after the quest. So that makes it a bit expensive to use. The base game variant is quite a bit stronger in attack, but ok, in the two dice range no-one cares i guess.
The Rapier has a very fluffy extra rule, and quite strong. It will have a price at least like the Broad Sword, maybe more. The buckler which is belonging to the rapier, is a less-good shield with only one shield symbol on the die and maybe the same price like the shield.



Notably until now i didn't use the no-wizard symbol. This is not a failure, it's in express.
In the next batch of weapons will have a "No Wizard" symbol, later i add a "Heavy" Symbol.
That second one is a restriction, not used by the base game heroes, but we'll see later.

[Anderas]

After changing some of the "finished" cards the third time, i was taking a step back and thinking abaout what i really want.

* All original weapons included, in best case with original dice
* speedy advancement to 3 dice
* stay stuck with 3 dice a lot of time afterwards as i think the game works best with 3 dice
* having room for both, Broadsword and Longsword

And have some additional flavor options.

For the prices, they are generic prices just taking into account a preset ramp up and a preset bonus for the different ranges.
The Rapier will likely be more expensive because of his extra counter attack rule, for example.



In all the gaps, i can "fill in" some artifacts that bring unique features without being overpowered.
The Flail is marked stronger than two whites, because, well, two yellows are a bit stronger than two whites. 10% roughly, getting better the stronger the enemy armor is.
That's at the same time the "gap" for the Hand axe - having other attack dice than the spear or the short sword, it is really unique now.
Those two weapons are not exactly on par with the intended strength of that class: Intended was 2.6 white dice strength, they are actually 2.2 white dice strong, but ok. Can't have everything. Just imagine that gap still open and ready to be filled.

The rapier is no concurrence to anything as it has an extra rule. It will be the strongest weapon my Wizard is allowed to carry apart from some artifacts.

For each range category except the basic one, in express, i left one step open so that you have to change your from "level" to "level"; or you wait a long time.
You can take the basic attack, and keep it cheap, nearly one category cheaper than normal; or you take all these beautiful extras, and get a longer weapon with a price that could easily buy you the next stronger one.

[cynthialee]

I really like most of this.
Again...the only issue I would have is alternant dice availability. I have a few of them, but not all of them.

I never agreed with many of the weapon prohibitions on wizards. I get the armor thing, and why we wouldn't let him have a 2 handed axe. But what is so hard about a long sword. I have owned one of them in the past. It isn't that difficult to swing the thing. Pretty sure that most men, even one who reads books all day, is stronger than me. The hard part about using the long sword is skill, not power. I get why he can't have a x-bow. He needs at least one free hand to conjure. Why no short sword? They are not that heavy at all.
anyways....
If the argument is game balance then I argue that a sword is not unbalancing. The fool ass wizard still has crap Body Points...Sure dive in and play warrior, you fool. But sometimes it may be advisable to risk the melee combat.

[knightkrawler]

I really like most of this.
Again...the only issue I would have is alternant dice availability.

I like the table for what it is. A system to stack the weapons with the colored dice in use.
I just don't like these pesky dice.

I never agreed with many of the weapon prohibitions on wizards. I get the armor thing, and why we wouldn't let him have a 2 handed axe. But what is so hard about a long sword. I have owned one of them in the past. It isn't that difficult to swing the thing. Pretty sure that most men, even one who reads books all day, is stronger than me. The hard part about using the long sword is skill, not power. I get why he can't have a x-bow. He needs at least one free hand to conjure. Why no short sword? They are not that heavy at all.
anyways....
If the argument is game balance then I argue that a sword is not unbalancing. The fool ass wizard still has crap Body Points...Sure dive in and play warrior, you fool. But sometimes it may be advisable to risk the melee combat.

My qualms with the wizard's equipment restrictions ends with 3 attack dice. Up to 2, he should definitely have.
It's specifically why I added a Rapier to my equipment deck (*for those who wonder why it's not there to date: I haven't found a picture. That problem is solved, I'll make and add the card soon.).
For the time of outmaxed heroes (Warrior 6/4 dice, Quester 4/6, Sojourner 4/5; all without plate armor)
I want the Wizard's max to be 3/5, including unlimited ranged attacks with 2 dice. That'll be granted with artefacts.

[Anderas]

I like the table for what it is. A system to stack the weapons with the colored dice in use.
I just don't like these pesky dice

Oh it is a little bit more than that. It doubles the weapon options without letting the power level creep too much, and it opens new slots for custom built artifacts.

If you don't like the colored dice, allow to reroll the complete attack in case there was no skull rolled.

With this rule ( reroll a zero skull result once)
Two whites become 2.5 whites
Three whites become 3.4 whites
Four whites become 4.3 whites.

So you can have access to these intermediate layers if you want.

[knightkrawler]

Aaah... now I fully get it.
But my last post also sounded less enthused and more negative than it was meant to be.
I do appreciate what you did there and might get some ideas there for my Academy Supplement where these in-between options become available through training.

[torilen]

I'm tired right now - so take my comments lightly for the moment.
I like what I am seeing, I think. I agree with cynthia that using the special dice
is questionable. I've wanted to come up with rules using those myself, and if I ever
get my hands on some, I most likely will. Most will not have those, however, and so
any rules using those will be ignored by most folks here, probably.

That said...the biggest problem I have with what I see here is the color on the weapon
cards. You created cards to match the base game, but then went and put color on them.
I would try to think of a numerical or letter value to replace the colors, if possible. Or,
if you want to keep the colors, create new, more modern looking cards.

Again...take my comments lightly. I'm lucky just to be typing straight right now.