Tweaking monster abilities

[videomaster21XX]

Tried to reply but couldn't. I'm assuming something in my browser is disabling the 'Keep me logged in' option on these boards. Adblock maybe?

Those sound fun, though obviously won't work for me as we are around a table.

Only issue I have with that is giving the undead a spell. Unless a vampire, they're kinda stupid and have no mind points. No way should they be able to do that I feel.

[Kurgan]

It's a new thing (unseen in classic HQ), but in the AH line of creations Specters are considered undead (0 mind points) and yet can cast spells (channel dread, on every turn if desired) and later some skeletons that can use fire of wrath.

You could associate characters like the Witch Lord and his lieutenants with undead but they don't have 0 mind points. There's a mindless statue that attacks with fire in ATOH but it doesn't get a mind point statistic either way.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

There are plenty of suggestions for "Enhanced Monsters" in various places on this forum, but I think that if you look at the full range of monsters in "Classic" HeroQuest (the 1989 edition) there are a lot more than you think. It is easy to assume that there are just the 8 original monsters (the ones that you get Monster Cards for in the box - I assume for cost reasons they didn't include more Monster Cards in the expansions), but a little research into the expansions and a bit of lateral thinking and there are plenty more official ones before you even consider homebrew.

The Monster Mash

In terms of Undead, I think there are 2 distinct types that I mentally label as "Mindless" and "Mindful". "Mindless" like Zombies and Skeletons would have a Mind value of zero as they have no independent capability for thought (and no capacity to hold spells in their mind in order to cast them) and "Mindful" (technically sapient revenants) like a Lich whose entire existence is based upon an extreme force of will, a powerful mind, so these would make very potent spellcasters.

HeroQuest "Mummies" I see more like Animated Tomb Guardians, a more potent form of Mindless Undead, and a creature like the one out of The Mummy (1999 Film) would be better represented as a Lich, who just happened to be wearing bandages!

[videomaster21XX]

Haven't posted here in a while.

I do appreciate the suggestions, but I feel I need to come clean/be more specific on my intentions of this thread.

The idea is that I already HAVE monster tweaks in mind my goal here was to get feedback on THOSE IDEAS, and suggestions for what I had already come up with.

Or basically: "Hey I've got these ideas, what do you think? Anything about them I should tweak?"

I can say we've started Keller's Keep and I'm using my undead tweaks. They seem to be going okay. The mummies being able to stun heroes is indeed a challenge as the other monsters can hit you without you being able to defend. Makes it to where getting them dead is a top priority. Having a few skeletons left over able to call in more makes the battles a bit more intense as you don't know if a ton more will show up or not given how I've got it set up.

Finally I do like my 'Crazed Zombies' ideas. I just have a bit of trouble remembering if I've rolled for their revival or not.

Vampires are still being worked on. Last time I had goblin 'minions' with him so he could feed. I might want to pair him with more other undead.

I've also implemented that in addition to whatever wandering monster you get. I can roll a dice to see if another undead joins in. Though just for fun. A six will get you a polar warbear. XD

[Bareheaded Warrior]

The idea is that I already HAVE monster tweaks in mind my goal here was to get feedback on THOSE IDEAS, and suggestions for what I had already come up with.

Fair enough although it is a fine line between feedback on your ideas and our own suggestions along the same lines...but I'll give it a whirl, ...Goblins first

Goblins

Your proposed change to add an extra defence die for the standard Goblins isn't worth making the change, statistically it makes very little difference especially considering how powerful your heroes are, it is likely that they will be over-killing Goblins in a single hit anyway.

In terms of summoning more Goblins, if we have already established that Goblins are not going to be any threat, then summoning more of them will just clog up your board and draw out combat (and encourage the heroes to door block)

I would suggest the following:

Use the "Goblin with Sword" and "Goblin with Hatchet/Axe" to represent standard Goblins but assume they are equipped with Spears so that can attack diagonally.

This minor change is simple but brings a number of advantages

1) Diagonal attacks are an easy way to allow weight of numbers to make a difference, irrespective to how many of a given monster type is on the board, only 4 maximum can attack a hero at once, with diagonal attacks this goes up to 8

2) When heroes door block, your monsters end up queuing up for the slaughter, an orc attacking a door-blocker could be assited by 2 goblins with Spears attacking from either side, a more tactical and balanced option

3) If attacking a hero who doesn't have diagonal attacks this enables sneaky goblins to poke at him, through a crowd of other monsters without risking their own neck (and it gives them a chance to last more than one round!

Then use the Goblin with Curved Sword figure to represent a Goblin armed with a shortbow (still 2AD but missile).

If you take note of the proportions of figures provided (Goblins are provided both in the Game System and Kellar’s Keep but in the same proportions) then you will notice that the proportion is 2:1 between the “Goblins” (Goblin with Sword and Goblin with Hatchet/Axe figures = 4) and the “Goblin Scout” (Goblin with Curved Sword = 2). This mean when laying out a new area, room or passage, when the Quest Map indicates that you should place 1-2 Goblins then use 1-2 Goblins, when it indicates 3 Goblins then use 2 Goblins and 1 Goblin Scout. In addition, if you are required to place a Goblin on the board but there are no Goblin figures left then place a Goblin Scout.

Orcs

Many moons ago (1990 to be precise) I also considered increasing the Orc BP to 2, but as they are the most frequent monster this resulted in a little too much admin in my opinion for tracking monster BP (I do this for other monsters but they are less common). That said it is certainly a viable option though but in the spirit of using the different figures provided in the box, like Goblins, consider the following...

A similar rule can be applied for Orcs, again noting the proportions of figures provided
• Orc with Sword x3 = Orc
• Orc with Cleaver x2 = Orc Crossbowman
• Orc with Flail x2 = Orc Henchman
• Orc with Notched Sword x1 = Orc Captain

1) So, when a new area, room or passage, is revealed and the Quest Map indicates the monsters that need to be placed, if there are 1-3 Orcs then place Orcs, if 4-5 Orcs then the 4th & 5th will be Orc Crossbowmen, if 6-7 then the 6th&7th will be Orc Henchmen, if 8 then the 8th will be an Orc Captain.

It is increasingly rare that such large numbers of Orcs will be placed in a single room or passageway, however the second part of this rule may occur more frequently

2) In addition, if you are required to place an Orc on the board but there are no Orc figures left then place an Orc Crossbowman. If none of those are available then place an Orc Henchman, if none of those are available then place an Orc Captain.

My stats are given below, but obviously this system would work with whichever stats you prefer.

Orc Crossbowman

Figure: Orc with Cleaver: Game System x2, Kellar’s Keep x2
First appearance: Against the Ogre Horde: The Outer Caves
Orc Crossbowmen roll three combat dice in attack on adjacent targets or make missile attacks with three combat dice in attack due to being armed with a crossbow.
• Movement Squares: 8
• Attack Dice: 3
• Defend Dice: 2
• Mind Dice: 2
• Body Points: 1

Orc Henchmen

Figure = Orc with Flail: Game System x2, Kellar’s Keep x2
Elite Orcs that can act as leader of groups of standard Orcs or can act as a bodyguards
• Movement Squares: 8
• Attack Dice: 3
• Defend Dice: 2
• Mind Dice: 2
• Body Points: 2
• Special Abilities: Diagonal Attack

Orc Champion

Figure = Orc with Notched Sword: Game System x1, Kellar’s Keep x1
• Movement Squares: 8
• Attack Dice: 3
• Defend Dice: 3
• Mind Dice: 3
• Body Points: 3
• Special Abilities: Diagonal Attack

In essence instead of boosting the stats of the basic figure, or boosting the numbers of figures, you have an in-built upgrade process, which mixes them up a little, after all an Orc with a couple of Spear armed Goblins flanking him and an Orc with a Crossbow backing them up is more of a tactical threat and more interesting than the queue of 2 standard Goblins and 2 standard Orcs.

For the Undead

Skeleton

Your proposal for Skeletons, the ability for them to summon more of themselves I think suffers the same drawback as the proposal for Goblins, summoning more of a monster type that we have already established aren't any threat, will just clog up your board and draw out combat (and encourage the heroes to door block). I simply rule that the Scythe that Skeletons are equipped with allows diagonal attack as a Spear and this brings the advantages and simplicity covered for Spear armed Goblins covered above

Zombies

Interestingly I did a similar thing with Zombies along the lines of "reanimator" as part of a one-off halloween special some time ago, notes are available here Zombie Appreciation Society and this may cover some of the gaps you have in your own proposal.

More to follow when I get time...

[videomaster21XX]

Well for Goblin's we're leaning into the idea that their WOULD be large numbers of them. Clogging the board with them isn't really an issue. I can also have them come in from different places. Not just right next to the Goblin commander.

As they are now, they practically don't matter. Only ever being a threat when there are a lot of them. Hence the idea of summoning more.

Naturally they are just going to try to kill the commander first though. I could always just be a dick and put him somewhere he can't be easily sniped by crossbows.

Also I still think I'm sticking to giving them just one more defense die. It at least tries to make them last a bit longer. As they are it's a blink and they're dead situation. They just barely matter.

I'm not sure about giving them different weapons depending on how many. It could help, but I don't want to copy the same thing from one group of monsters to another, and I think this benefits the Orcs much better.

(Though I believe you are describing the figures as they appear in the original game systems. I'm using the updated re-releases that come with things as female orcs, orcs with hammers, etc. I don't think any of the new figures come with cleavers anymore.)

I can say that the Skeletons being able to summon more of them hasn't really caused any problems, but they also aren't really doing much to change things up either. I tried to introduce holy water bottles to the game that let you deal an extra die of combat to them, but my heroes pretty much refuse to buy any. They in fact never spend money on potions period. I'm not really sure what I can implement that will get them to spend gold on it.

Maybe magical weapon upgrades? Like turning the Orc's bane into a longsword? I'm just spitballing there.

Maybe I could give the Skeleton some sorta Rust ability that while rare, could destroy a crossbow or something making them have to buy a new one? They'd probably not like that very much though.

As for door blocking. That has basically been their strategy since like... quest five of the original quests. It's why I'm trying to find abilities I can give the monsters rather than just boost their attacks.

So far, and likely not surprisingly, the thing I implemented that they enjoy the most is the 'Loot Goblin' I added. I can have that thing pop out of anywhere and run off when the room is searched, open secret doors to rooms that in the quest are normally nothing, and have them run for it. They absolutely will go all out to kill it.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Well for Goblin's we're leaning into the idea that their WOULD be large numbers of them. Clogging the board with them isn't really an issue. I can also have them come in from different places. Not just right next to the Goblin commander.

As they are now, they practically don't matter. Only ever being a threat when there are a lot of them. Hence the idea of summoning more.

I can say that the Skeletons being able to summon more of them hasn't really caused any problems, but they also aren't really doing much to change things up either

I wasn't really using the term clogging up the board in the physical sense (although that may be a consideration) I meant more in the sense that the Barbairian hacking his way through large numbers of cannon fodder makes for a dull experience. Whatever he rolls will almost inevitably result in a dead Goblin, whatever the Goblin rolls will almost inevitably bounce off the Barbarian so you get a situation of roll anything, same inevitable result, rinse and repeat, boring.

As you yourself have said the issue with Goblins is they aren't a threat unless there is a lot of them, so resolution is to increase the numbers ... but you have also said that Skeletons suffer from the same issue but increasing the numbers for Skeletons whilst it hasn't made the issue worse it hasn't resolved the issue either, so why would you think that the same reolution would work with Goblins?

So what is the answer? Variety and combinations. Mix It Up.

If you think of the basic 3 monsters in MineCraft; Zombie, Skeleton, Creeper, none are much of a threat (aside from the sneak attack) on their own as there are different tactics that are effective against each type (close fast and hack, stay close and use shield, stay well back and use bow) but if you are attacked by a zombie, skeleton and a creeper at the same time then it is challeneging as the tactics to defeat each contradict each other.

In the same way with HQ (and you are correct about my comments around the different figures but I think the same principles apply) if you have fast, diagonal attack Goblins that are no threat on their own, you could just walk into the room and kill them, Goblin Archers with shortbows, again just walk into the room, close with them and slay them easy, and a Fimir which has a reasonable attack and staying power either door block or rush in as a team and gang up, but in a combination with 2 Goblins, 2 Goblin Archers and 1 Fimir, then there are too many to rush into the room, door blocking will result in you being picked off by the Archers and/or being attacked by the Fimir in the doorway AND both Goblins at the same time using their diagonal attacks...

That might not be the best example but hopefully you get what I mean!

On a side note the Wandering Monster Roll that I implemented many decades ago that allows monsters to occassionally appear to the rear of the party and attack, also helps reduce the amount of door blocking (whilst it is still a viable tactic sometimes) as the longer you spend clustered around a doorway picking off monsters one by one, the greater the chances that one or more will appear behind you!

[videomaster21XX]

As you yourself have said the issue with Goblins is they aren't a threat unless there is a lot of them, so resolution is to increase the numbers ... but you have also said that Skeletons suffer from the same issue but increasing the numbers for Skeletons whilst it hasn't made the issue worse it hasn't resolved the issue either, so why would you think that the same reolution would work with Goblins?

The only answer I really have is that with the skeletons, they can only summon more when there is one or two left. The Goblin Commander is the only real difference, in that he is the one commanding them and he can summon more. Changing up the strategy just a little. I won't really know if that does much till I'm able to field test it.

Heh maybe I can have kamikaze Goblins. The commander can tell one of his men to run forward with some sort of magical bomb? or what if they could do team up attacks? Or introduce a swarm attack?

If you think of the basic 3 monsters in MineCraft

I... I don't play Minecraft. I mean I'm pretty sure I get the gist of it though.

I could just have more Orcs show up with Goblins. I know I seem stuck on the ability thing for each monster and I feel I'd be leaving Goblins out, but yeah. There's only so much that can be done I guess.

but in a combination with 2 Goblins, 2 Goblin Archers and 1 Fimir, then there are too many to rush into the room, door blocking will result in you being picked off by the Archers and/or being attacked by the Fimir in the doorway AND both Goblins at the same time using their diagonal attacks...

I'm sadly not really confident in that prediction. The problem is the party I have was able to run through the Frozen Horror with it being just about the right challenge. We had archers and such back then, and the drawf or barbarian (Now berserker) would tank the doorway, with the bard healing them, or the Kn right would tank the doorway and it's basically over for my guys at that point. The Knight is kinda over powered.

I'm kinda feeling that the best solution is going to be taking the monsters from Frozen Horror and just figuring out a reason they'd be in these dungeons. Goblins showing up with the War Bears would likely cause my heroes to pause for a second.

[videomaster21XX]

Okay I think I have my solution for the Goblins.

I'm going to keep my Goblin commander idea, except he doesn't summon more Goblins. He has a horn that he blows that sends the other Goblins into a frenzy. This slightly buffs their attacks. I'm thinking one more defense die, and either an extra attack die, or they attack twice.

The horn actually distorts the air around the commander a bit, so if you shoot an arrow or throw a dagger at them, I'll have my heroes roll a 1d6. Odd is a miss, even is a hit. Then they roll damage as usual.

This is so they don't just crossbow the thing to death every time. Normal attacks will not have this issue, so it'll encourage them to try to run up and smite them that way.

Orc's I'm going to do the different weapon thing with. It looks like they normally attack with 3, so I don't need to worry about them having crossbows. It's the same attack dice. I'll just make sure if they are using long swords, they too get to attack diagonally. I am absolutely going to give them one extra body point though. We'll see if it drags down the battles, but I really feel an Orc should be tankier than a Goblin.

Abominations I'm going to go forward with the 'venom' idea. If they score a hit. The hero gets affected by the monster's venom. This causes them to roll only 1 red die for movement instead of 2. I'm not sure if I should have it be a standard set of turns this lasts, or if I should make it a 1d6 roll, and the number you get is how long it lasts.

We'll be starting Keller's Keep in a couple of weeks as we JUST finished Return of the Witch Lord. (Also I found out about the missing doors in Quest's 9 and 10 for that quest book. What an oversight that was.)