My approach to AHQ

[Stabsam]

Hi there,

so Cursed City is currently available from GW and its maybe not the best game but its a great option to start a mini collection that can be used for AHQ.
I also bought 2 boxes of Cursed City tiles, which is enough to play AHQ with. 1 box is lacking the straight parts. But it is not too hard to find the paper stuff/ tiles on ebay! And the advantage is you can now use any AOS mini (bigger bases and bigger tiles...!).
https://imgur.com/ScmEBKl

I have some painted minis by now
https://imgur.com/DYVGrPG

Some are from older GW games
https://imgur.com/IXhHDlb
https://imgur.com/4aj9Eaa

I also bought the terrain parts from warcry catacombs. There were pretty neat doors in the set and i cudnt resist!
https://imgur.com/52a1hJT

While painting a lot of my backlog, i also aim to design my own quest for AHQ. But i am not yet sure which ruleset to use. The stats for the standard skaven in AHQ seem a bit off (bit too high) and i did some research into AHQ Reforged, which has balanced stats. But i didnt play and test games yet.

Anyway hopefully this forum becomes a little bit more active!

[RECIVS]

i also aim to design my own quest for AHQ.

Welcome to the club!

The stats for the standard skaven in AHQ seem a bit off (bit too high) and i did some research into AHQ Reforged, which has balanced stats.

Interesting. May I ask: too high compared to what? What do you mean by "balanced stats"?

Reforged is my favorite, no doubt about it, but it has its own PV scale, which may be incompatible with the original and all the other variants out there. You may want to look into this post as part of your research.

In short, Slev considers that stat values of 10+ break the game, so he basically lowered the whole scale altogether, among other tweaks. Compared to AHQ and its other variants, Slev's Heroes and Enemies are therefore weaker and easier to attack, hit, and damage due to his modifications (such as lower stats, broader death zones, an ever increasing and almost fixed Value of Enemies for every expedition, et cetera). His approach to "balance", then, is to allocate more wounds and other damage-preventing abilities to the Heroes along with more lenient healing mechanics, which could only make them more resilient, but not as effective offensively as higher-stats characters. I believe adding more wounds to the adventurers and revising the healing mechanics in the game are supposed to be difficulty adjustments anyway, not of scale, but that's for another discussion.

Besides, in any case, the bestiary in Reforged ends up being incompatible (meaning not interchangeable) with the original, which, to me at least, is one of its main downsides. In my opinion, Slev's approach makes his system so unique that it becomes more complicated and harder to mod in the end. Anyway, I guess you could say that Reforged has "balanced stats" in a certain unique way, as its characters and monsters share the same PV scale, but I'm afraid they're in no way equivalent to the original ones.

As mentioned here, I believe better results (such as more varied and engaging combat) could be obtained with less complications and without sacrificing compatibility with the original system. You may find some of my redesign notes here.

Anyway hopefully this forum becomes a little bit more active!

[Stabsam]

Ok , thanks for your post.

Well, i think generally the same way as Slev thinks concerning stats higher of 10+ but my feeling is that the beginning of the standard EAHQ has generally too high stats.
So as an example: I rolled pretty high for my Barbarian and he started with a real high WS and Strength, which made him the strongest party member. But him being that strong was essential cuz the others lacked strength. So in order to deal with the normal skaven on a consistent way i needed my barbarian to be that strong.
Now the regular statline for a normal skaven is WS6 BS 5 S 5 T 7 SP 10 Br 6 INT 6 W 3 and PV 1. I kinda agree with the statline besides the toughness of 7. Most characters will have a strength of 4-6 in the beginning, which gives the heroes a chance of less than 50% to wound the rather weak starting enemy.
While playing i found that the weaker characters had trouble wounding normal skaven.
Also thinking about the game itself, which is meant to be a grindy rpg like game- it doesn't really make sense for that i can high roll in character creation and have almost maxed out values. It wud leave me unsatisfied when i cudnt really improve my characters a lot in some areas.
So therefore i think it wud make sense to have some of the values lowered, so:
1) the starting enemies are not too tough to kill since a long dungeon will eventually tear you down anyway
2) lowering both heroes and enemies stats will not make the game a lot easier - that isnt my intention
3) lowering the heroes stats, so more progress can be made
4) applying stats for certain enemies as its design is intended (i.e. skaven are supposed to be agile, they come in masses but with low morale and they are more fragile; higher toughness and wounds for the elite skaven)

And 1 more thing that isnt directly connected to stats. That is healing. I had a fighter mage elf as Paladin and the EAHQ rules do not demand materials to cast healing. So i could basically heal all the time, or just wait for the next turn to heal up with no penalty outside of battle phase.
I personally would like my EAHQ be also partially resource management- when is it time to leave the dungeon and buy stuff... I never had to do that. I left the dungeon because i wanted to buy better items and level up, which is a part of the resource game but shudnt be everything.
It isnt clear to me how to exactly change that but i would rather reintegrate material cost for spells than having unlimited spells. The obvious changes wud be:
1) being able to buy materials at the shop
2) being able to find materials in dungeons
3) some sort of crafting system/ reward bounty system that lets you decide on what chart to roll (i.e. weapon chart or ??? chart or material based chart); so players can actively decide a direction, though you still might not get the material that you needed and instead getting an undesired material...
I really like games where i can control resources to a part so that my return to the shop/ village is delayed- like an depleting HP bar.

So this was my conclusion i came to after some hours of play.

[RECIVS]

Now the regular statline for a normal skaven is WS6 BS 5 S 5 T 7 SP 10 Br 6 INT 6 W 3 and PV 1. I kinda agree with the statline besides the toughness of 7. Most characters will have a strength of 4-6 in the beginning, which gives the heroes a chance of less than 50% to wound the rather weak starting enemy.
While playing i found that the weaker characters had trouble wounding normal skaven.

A roll of 7 is average in a D12 system, and, if the stat values can also go from 1 to 12, then a value of 6-7 is clearly average too. Rolling a 7+ is thus like flipping a coin, contrary to what I understand you're saying. Let's see, in AHQ a model with WS6 requires a roll of 7+ to hit a target of the same WS, and a target with TH7 also requires a 7+ to be wounded. Causing wounds, by the way, depends entirely on the roll of the damage dice and the target's TH. Therefore, stronger attackers have more opportunities to deal damage, of course, but I'm afraid ST does not affect the probability of each damage dice scoring a wound.

We can see then that, under the "original scale" (the one I believe should be preserved), an average model (with WS6 and TH7) has 1/2 or "50-50" chance of hitting and wounding a target of the same average stat values. With that in mind, I can't come up with a more "average" monster under such a scale than the good ol' Skaven Warrior. Yes, below-average models may have some trouble hitting and wounding average and above-average ones, but, in the end, I think that's how it's supposed to work. Anyway, if you consider that the SW should have its TH reduced, an easy fix to adjust difficulty (not scale) would be to ignore its leather armor and/or shield. If you want a consistent game in the long run, though, keep in mind that monsters don't get to increase their stats.

Also thinking about the game itself, which is meant to be a grindy rpg like game- it doesn't really make sense for that i can high roll in character creation and have almost maxed out values. It wud leave me unsatisfied when i cudnt really improve my characters a lot in some areas.So therefore i think it wud make sense to have some of the values lowered, so:
1) the starting enemies are not too tough to kill since a long dungeon will eventually tear you down anyway
2) lowering both heroes and enemies stats will not make the game a lot easier - that isnt my intention
3) lowering the heroes stats, so more progress can be made
4) applying stats for certain enemies as its design is intended (i.e. skaven are supposed to be agile, they come in masses but with low morale and they are more fragile; higher toughness and wounds for the elite skaven)

Part of the original concept or "feel" of the game is having different game experiences with different versions of the same character, and I believe that should be preserved too (despite being changed in Reforged). However, I understand that, given the scarce number of wounds allocated to the Heroes and how healing works in AHQ, high stat values may be the only way of keeping the game playable sometimes. From your options, on the other hand, number 3 was the one implemented in my revision, trying not to alter the original scale.

And 1 more thing that isnt directly connected to stats. That is healing. I had a fighter mage elf as Paladin and the EAHQ rules do not demand materials to cast healing. So i could basically heal all the time, or just wait for the next turn to heal up with no penalty outside of battle phase.
I personally would like my EAHQ be also partially resource management- when is it time to leave the dungeon and buy stuff... I never had to do that. I left the dungeon because i wanted to buy better items and level up, which is a part of the resource game but shudnt be everything.
It isnt clear to me how to exactly change that but i would rather reintegrate material cost for spells than having unlimited spells. The obvious changes wud be:
1) being able to buy materials at the shop
2) being able to find materials in dungeons
3) some sort of crafting system/ reward bounty system that lets you decide on what chart to roll (i.e. weapon chart or ??? chart or material based chart); so players can actively decide a direction, though you still might not get the material that you needed and instead getting an undesired material...
I really like games where i can control resources to a part so that my return to the shop/ village is delayed- like an depleting HP bar.

As mentioned before, I think those tweaks implemented in EAHQ are difficulty adjustments that don't really mess with the original scale, as it seems that Gunzhard ended up realizing that the vanilla healing mechanics may be somewhat too tricky for their own good. My revision preserves Slev's magic system, based on the original one.

[Stabsam]

Oh, yes you are right strength determines the amount of damage dice you can roll. Too much Warhammer imprinted the strength/ toughness rule in my head.

I am well aware that monster stats dont scale like heroes do with experience. But i dont think this is a problem because i could just add stronger monsters in the course of the game.
But your thoughts just help me to realize the importance of knowing after what time frame the heroes will level up and when it is appropriate to introduce stronger monsters.

By the way i created some pictures for my quest with midjourney ( an ai picture generator on discord). It is a really nice option of saving time for art/ being able to create your own unique art for your designed quest.
A world map https://imgur.com/MSDsFLf
An old tavern, which the heroes reach and gather information at https://imgur.com/ONojvGu
I also tried to get the old black and white warhammer type style art but i didnt manage to create it.
Having something visual to either show or just in the description adds a lot of flavour for me.

[RECIVS]

You posted right as I was finishing editing my last post!

I am well aware that monster stats dont scale like heroes do with experience. But i dont think this is a problem because i could just add stronger monsters in the course of the game. But your thoughts just help me to realize the importance of knowing after what time frame the heroes will level up and when it is appropriate to introduce stronger monsters.

Correct. That's why making monsters weaker may not be a good idea (particularly in the long run) if the original scale is to be preserved.

Wow! A fimir just appeared!

[RECIVS]

i think generally the same way as Slev thinks concerning stats higher of 10+

I just realized I didn't address this part of your post.

The issue may be only with Toughness, as the other stats are unlikely to break the game in the same way. Personally, I've been using this simple fix with very good results. I believe it may render most of Slev's adjustments and modifications unnecessary.

Basically, the fix is that a damage dice roll of 10+ always scores a wound (TH12 models require a roll of 11+), which means that any model (except TH12 ones) may be wounded by any opponent with at least 1/4 chance.

Keep in mind that, according to the vanilla rules, a to-hit roll of 10+ always hits, so a model with WS12 may be hit by any opponent, even the weakest one, with at least 1/4 chance. Also, ST can't go beyond 9 (or 10 with magic) in any case.

[Stabsam]

I was reading the bgg forums with some of slev's and your comments concerning balancing and changing the base stats.
It was very interesting and 1 very important argument of slev, why he would change the stats, was to create the necessary variety for the big amount of enemies without coming up with too many extra rules to represent their characteristics (WS12 of a Bloodthirster, T12 of a Great Unclean One...).

Next week is almost free for me and i hope to manage to get a few games, in which i can test the reforged rules. Though i was waiting for slev to finish his latest update and it seems to take longer than expected.
I would like to continue creating my own quest but i really need to have the right convincing ruleset before i can work out the dungeons in detail.
I have a lot ideas already. I want each dungeon to be kinda unique so the players have to form a party and have to work together. So the party has to make decision, which shud not be clear nonbrainers rather unfamous maybe even disgusting choices. I want them to argue and detest the partyleader for his initial decisions until the leader will either be silenced in one way or another (should be funny to watch) or respected in retrospect.

(i.e. there will be a a rumour about a "haunted" forest and they will need to traverse it. the main layout will be a longish corridor like a path in a forest... Now each time they go from entrance A to exit B they will land at A again. Starting from scratch; i am not sure if those corridors will vary a little. But the solution will be to exit from A, which will lead to C. I wanna build some dumb but strong motivation for them to always move forward and I kinda wanna mask that as good as possible so they get really frustrated and will be like "whaaat the F" once they realize what is going on! And in order to do that i need the right enemy balance- so it will be rather late that they think about retreating and therefore going the right way.)

[RECIVS]

1 very important argument of slev, why he would change the stats, was to create the necessary variety for the big amount of enemies without coming up with too many extra rules to represent their characteristics (WS12 of a Bloodthirster, T12 of a Great Unclean One...).

Yes, and also that stat values of 10+ break the game, which I'm afraid may sound contradictory to what he proposes regarding those monsters you mention, by the way.

Anyway, the original system is very versatile, allowing you to model (within its constraints) almost any character or creature you can come up with, and this is where special rules and abilities come into play as customization tools. That's pretty much how most of the RPG and DC systems I know deal with unusually big or powerful models anyhow (including AHQ, WFB, and WFRP), and I think it encourages the development of creativity and of the system itself, which can't be a bad thing.

We may see that even Slev ended up adding special abilities to his monsters, particularly the most powerful ones, which necessarily carries additional rules. However, he also acknowledges the rarity of such encounters. See his Appendix VI-Bestiary-Rules & Matrices (p. 6): "Note that mounted figures/cavalry and war machines are unsuitable to standard games of AHQ given it’s setting, although some war machines may be suitable or set pieces in pre-designed Quests. Similarly, very large Monsters and some very powerful characters will be of little use in most games, but can be usefully brought in as Quest objectives."

Which brings us back to my point, being that those unusually big and powerful monsters are rarely encountered, so I think it shouldn't be a problem to implement some extra quest rules to deal with them ocasionally instead of altering the whole scale permanently as Slev did, with all the complications that such an approach may entail.

In the end, the game remains a D12 system, which means (for example) that the probability of rolling a 7 or a 7+ will be the same, respectively, regardless of what ruleset is used. I'm afraid that Slev's approach of lowering the stat values of his characters and monsters may thus create more problems than it solves, for reasons already posted in this thread. 

i was waiting for slev to finish his latest update and it seems to take longer than expected.

I'm too waiting for his update in order to release mine, though I'm still working on the bestiary. However, I think it wouldn't hurt to start familiarizing yourself with the current version of Reforged.

So the party has to make decision, which shud not be clear nonbrainers rather unfamous maybe even disgusting choices. I want them to argue and detest the partyleader for his initial decisions until the leader will either be silenced in one way or another (should be funny to watch) or respected in retrospect.

Like real-life politics

(i.e. there will be a a rumour about a "haunted" forest and they will need to traverse it. the main layout will be a longish corridor like a path in a forest... Now each time they go from entrance A to exit B they will land at A again. Starting from scratch; i am not sure if those corridors will vary a little. But the solution will be to exit from A, which will lead to C. I wanna build some dumb but strong motivation for them to always move forward and I kinda wanna mask that as good as possible so they get really frustrated and will be like "whaaat the F" once they realize what is going on! And in order to do that i need the right enemy balance- so it will be rather late that they think about retreating and therefore going the right way.)

It sounds interesting. I believe you'll find the system to be very mod friendly. Please keep us posted.

[Stabsam]

I finished painting all the catacombs terrain set, which is perfectly fit for AHQ.
Here some pictures to celebrate it: