Is the Amethyst spell "Alter Allegiance" to good?

[RECIVS]

Cheers for the discussion, nice to have someone interested.

Interested? I'd say obsessed

Bit of a problem with how i'm playing and our conversation is that I'm using the latest Reforged and the latest Re-Reforged, which is I believe is designed to be applied to the previous version of Reforged. I haven't used or read the previous Reforged so some of the references in the latest Re-Reforged and your suggestions above don't make quite make sense.
Things like:

None of my characters starts with stat scores of 11 or 12; they start slightly weaker than in AHQ. In any case, what's so problematic about it?

My player just went Base (INT 4) human (+1) -> Wizard (+1) - > Adept -> Mage (+1) -> bonus point (+1) and got a base INT stat of 8. Then plus Re-Reforged's 1d4 would give a range of 9-12. Was the character creation system a bit different in the previous Reforged version?

and in the Re-Reforged PDF there's a number of mentions of specialisation to do with training, but I can't find any reference to specialisation in the current Reforged. So I'm bumbling through it making a lashed together monster of rules!

A monster indeed! Yes, Re-Reforged V1.81a was designed for Reforged V2020. As I posted in the other thread here, the current version of Reforged doesn't work, and I believe I recommended using my example GM play sheet along with staying away from character-creation rules for the moment (until V1.82a comes out).

The 1d4 roll is a mechanic I added to preserve the essence and feel of the random character-creation process in AHQ (sometimes you'll roll high and sometimes low just as in the original). You may see randomness is absent in Slev's Hero-creation system, which is not the "feel" of the original game if you ask me.

Each to their own, but I actually hate the idea of randomness with character creation. I don't like the idea that one player's character could be much better than another just cos they rolled better in their initial d4 rolls. I used my own system of a set of bonus point (1, 2 ,2 ,3, 3, 3) that they can distribute between WS, BS, TH, SP, BR and INT. The result is basically the same statistically except that no one can roll a "4".

Fair enough, though in RL there are not two identical persons. I think that's what randomness emulates in character-creation systems. However, your method may be better than simply adding +2 to each stat, though it would still be the same result statistically. On the other hand, what prevents players from coming up with the same character every time in your system?

In AHQ, players may have a different game experience every time they play, even if they select the same character, and, as I've said, the approach here is to preserve the essence and feel of AHQ as much as possible. You're free to tweak to your liking.

My version of Magnus starts with IN9 (as he was lucky with the dice and has trained once already), so if you think it's too much, you may simply apply -2INT (or +2 instead of +1d4 during character creation). That would mean he couldn't train past IN10 in any case, though he may be able to use some other items and abilities to improve his INT.

In the current Reforged it appears that you can train all of the core characteristics up to 3 points at an increasing gold cost, which would put values of above 10 pretty accessible. But again maybe this is a incompatibility with different versions.

An additional rank of training was introduced in the current version of Reforged, seemingly in an attempt to bring it back to the original "scale", but I'm afraid that's not possible without tweaking the bestiaries too. This is one of the changes in Reforged that it's to be ignored in Re-Reforged. Only two ranks of training are allowed in Re-Reforged (except WS) plus Specialization (see Heroic Skills in Play Sheets).

No healing spells, herbs, or potions? How are you healing your adventurers then?

Healing spell. And with enhancing as written, he can fully heal two heroes with each cast. The other heroes in the party have a few herbs to supplement. The power of his spells is going to be reduced now that I'm putting back in specific spell components.

May I ask what do you mean by "putting back in specific spell components"?

I'd stick to the original spells as much as possible, though. I don't think they're as unbalanced as you say. Could you please provide examples?

It more of an obvious issue when looking at all the spell books as a whole. Because the original AHQ spell books were created and released one at a time they don't seems to compliment each other. The bright wizard is supposed to be a wizard of fire and destruction, which can even be a danger to their team mates. But they still get a full powered heal spell and a resurrection spell? Shouldn't healing and resurrection be more limited to the less aggressive magic orders? which in turn should have less damaging spells?
Who would ever waste a spell cast on "Flight" or "The Bright Key" (as written in original AHQ)? What horrible spells compared to a simple fireball or heal.
The Amethyst spell "Soul Steel" gives a single bonus 1 toughness = Rubbish.
Why does the Light spell "sleep of ages" allow sleeping targets to be hit at +4 to hit, but the Amethyst Spell "Sleep" make the target have a WS count as 1 when attacking them. Why the different rules to attack a sleeping target? = Poorly thought out.
Reforged (no disrespect Slev) make the spells rather more boring. Every wizard now has access to heal and resurrect and a lot of the spells are called different things in different spellbooks but do exactly the same thing.

What I would like to see is wizards having to weigh up whether they want an offensive spell set, a healing spell set, a buff spell set, a debuff spell set etc. These could all be linked to the Warhammer background appropriate magic orders. It would be good to have more and less powerful versions of spell so that, for example a bright wizard would have a heal spell, but it can only heal a max of 5 wounds, whereas a Jade wizard would have a heal spell that healed unlimited wounds. There could be heal spells that healed 3 wounds to every target in adjacent squares, a group heal.

Sounds interesting. I'll look into it when I get into magic.

So, what loot and treasures tables are you using again?

I'm using the ones as written in the latest version of Reforged.

Slev's treasure tables may be too generous (they were even more so in the 2020 version). You may want to switch to 10GCs*PV for monster loot and also use the original Treasure Chest Table from TitD and see how it goes. You may use Slev's Treasure Chest Table as optional for less difficulty.

[Neuralstasis]

A monster indeed! Yes, Re-Reforged V1.81a was designed for Reforged V2020. As I posted in the other thread here, the current version of Reforged doesn't work, and I believe I recommended using my example GM play sheet along with staying away from character-creation rules for the moment (until V1.82a comes out).

Oh that's no fun, I'm just going to have to wing it for now. I'll take a point of INT and BR off each character for a start. Please bring out V1.82a so I can stop mucking it all up!

On the other hand, what prevents players from coming up with the same character every time in your system?

If two players want to make exactly the same character then that's fine by me. I aint playing enough games to expect to see any twins as GM anyway.

May I ask what do you mean by "putting back in specific spell components"?

I mentioned a few posts back that, in an effort to simplify gameplay, I allowed wizard characters in previous AHQ games to just have generic "Spell components" that they could use for any spell, rather than requiring specific "phoenix feather" or "fire dust". It saved space on players character sheets and they didnt have to look up what each spell cost each time they cast. They just had to reduce their tally of "Spell Components" by 1 or 2 each time they cast. I think cos my last campaign only had one half-wizard/fighter player character, magic didnt seem too overpowered. But now this alter allegiance spell is ruining things!

Slev's treasure tables may be too generous (they were even more so in the 2020 version). You may want to switch to 10GCs*PV for monster loot and also use the original Treasure Chest Table from TitD and see how it goes. You may use Slev's Treasure Chest Table as optional for less difficulty.

10GC per PV was the system I came up with in my previous campaign which seemed to work ok. Slev's loot table to seem to be pretty generous and they dont scale with PV's of the encountered monsters. I do like his treasure chest table, but im only giving players a single roll on it, rather than the party strength rolls.

[RECIVS]

V1.82a will come with its own stand-alone book of core rules, which will override Slev's in its entirety for the first time. No more jumping between rulebooks.

I just uploaded it here. A list of updates is included as usual. You may see that some rules have been clarified according to what has been discussed on the forum boards in the last couple of years. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'm now putting the appendices togehter, which will be independent from Slev's too. That'll take me a few more weeks, but you can use my core rules in the meantime.

[Neuralstasis]

Great. I'll have a look when I can.
Do you want to post this in a separate Re-Reforged topic so I don't clutter up my thread moaning about Amethyst wizards with feedback about re-reforged?

[RECIVS]

Great. I'll have a look when I can.
Do you want to post this in a separate Re-Reforged topic so I don't clutter up my thread moaning about Amethyst wizards with feedback about re-reforged?

You're right. I should have posted it in your other thread where it belongs. I thought we had already solved the issue with Alter Allegiance, though.

[Dieterdg84]

To get back on topic on this.
What about this on Alter Allegiance:

The Wizard may pick six enemy models within six squares. Each of the chose opponents must make an Intelligence test. If the test is failed, the model changes side - it is now controlled by the Wizard player, and may even attack its former comrades. The effect lasts for 2 combat rounds, then the affected models reverts to enemy status.

Not really playtested this yet, but I think this might be somewhat comparable to a fireball spell damage wise? And now there's a chance they survive the spell and fight back, instead of just running away.

[Thanquol]

Just adding my tuppence (or perhaps two Pfennig) to the discussion, now that the dust's settled and the parchment's been well and truly torn.

I've been reflecting on the Amethyst Wizards' Alter Allegiance spell from the original AHQ perspective, rather than the sprawling homebrew permutations. It's clear the spell was always a bit of a wildcard – dramatic in flavour, potent in effect, and slightly vague in execution. Classic GW, really.

UK, White Dwarf issue: 125 (May 1990), The Dark Beneath the World (page 18)

ALTER ALLEGIANCE
Component: A Sheet of Expensive Parchment

To cast this spell, the Wizard tears the parchment sheet in two. As he does so, all combat around the Wizard pauses for a second, and then continues as if nothing has happened.

However, not everyone is unaffected. Roll a dice. The Wizard may pick that many enemy models within six squares. Each of the chosen opponents must make an Intelligence test. If the test is failed, the model changes side – it is now controlled by the Wizard player, and may even attack its former comrades. The effect lasts until the end of the next exploration turn, when the model reverts to enemy status and runs away.

The wording never specifies whether the Intelligence test is retaken each turn, which opens the door (pun intended) to interpretation. Given the spell's narrative – combat pausing, loyalties flipping – it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume a recurring test was intended. Something akin to a willpower check for the monster each combat round to break free – INT, in AHQ terms. That would add tension and avoid the "cast once, clear room" scenario.

Greywolf's house rule – that the spell doesn't affect Undead, Daemons, Heroes, or Special Characters – is a sensible thematic fix. It keeps the spell focused on grunts and avoids narrative derailment. I'd argue that even within AHQ's original framework, this limitation feels implied, if not stated.
As for balance, I'd lean towards a simple lore-consistent tweak:

• Affected models retest INT at the start of each of their turns to break free.
• Models that fail remain controlled until the end of the next exploration turn.
• Models that succeed regain control and act normally.

This preserves the spell's flavour without turning it into a tactical nuke. It also avoids excessive dice rolling while introducing a bit of unpredictability.

And yes, I agree with the broader sentiment: Alter Allegiance is powerful, especially when compared to spells like Flight or The Bright Key, which are rich in theme but limp in execution. AHQ's spell design has always been a bit uneven – some spells are evocative but impractical, others are mechanically dominant but narratively thin.

[...] The bright wizard is supposed to be a wizard of fire and destruction, which can even be a danger to their team mates. But they still get a full powered heal spell and a resurrection spell? Shouldn't healing and resurrection be more limited to the less aggressive magic orders? which in turn should have less damaging spells?

Who would ever waste a spell cast on "Flight" or "The Bright Key" (as written in original AHQ)? What horrible spells compared to a simple fireball or heal. … [Source]

The Bright Wizard's spellbook in Advanced Heroquest ended up more "general purpose" than strictly pyromantic – not because GW forgot their lore, but because it was the only spellbook included in the core rules. It had to serve as a catch-all for utility, healing, and damage, regardless of magical tradition. So yes, while Bright Wizards are typically associated with fire and destruction, their AHQ incarnation had to cover most evils by necessity.

Thematically, Flames of the Phoenix makes perfect sense. Bright Wizards can cauterise wounds with magical fire, and the spell's healing effect is a natural extension of that. The Bright Key, often dismissed, is actually one of the most versatile spells in AHQ. It's utility-based, yes, but its ability to create doors opens up tactical options that go far beyond brute force. It's not flashy, but it's clever.

As for Inferno of Doom, it's a classic GW flourish – dramatic, dangerous, and inefficient. It's an AoE spell that hits everything under the fireball template, friend or foe. So unless you enjoy flambéing your allies, it requires careful positioning and a healthy dose of restraint. I've unpacked its quirks in this post in the thread on: other schools of magic.

In short, the Bright College in AHQ wasn't broken – it was broad. A design compromise, yes, but one that still holds thematic water if you squint at it sideways and remember the context.

I'm not diving into the [Reforged] PDFs – life's too short and my patience too mortal – but I do think the original AHQ version of the spell benefits from a touch more nuance.

Of course, if the parchment was really expensive, perhaps the spell should only work on monsters with a taste for luxury.

Sarcasm: Mind control? Yes-yes! Brilliant idea – GENIUS idea! Why bother with stab-stab or burn-blast when you can make the enemy do it for you, yes? Stand safely behind door, nibble food-warpstone, shout orders – perfect-perfect! Thanquol once cast similar spell – "Obey-Me-Now-Fool!" – very advanced, very powerful, very misunderstood! Failed only due to sabotage (obviously), incompetent underlings (obviously), treacherous winds of magic (obviously), and possibly a cursed spoon (not confirmed). Still! Principle stands: why bludgeon-fight and kill-kill when you can puppet-puppet? Much better. Much smarter. Much Thanquol-er. /Sarcasm

[RECIVS]

I've been reflecting on the Amethyst Wizards' Alter Allegiance spell from the original AHQ perspective, rather than the sprawling homebrew permutations.

I may be wrong, but right now I don't recall many permutations (if any) of the spell in the AHQ variants out there.

By the way, let's keep in mind that sticking to the original AHQ mechanics is not necessarily a good thing in and of itself. Maybe it's just that I'm immune to the nostalgia factor in this case, but AHQ is a game that wasn't well playtested because it had to be rushed to market—and that's not an opinion!

I'm not diving into the Re-Reforged PDFs – life's too short and my patience too mortal – but I do think the original AHQ version of the spell benefits from a touch more nuance.

I believe you're referring to Reforged; Re-Reforged comes in one PDF that doesn't mess with the magic system yet. Appearances may be misleading, though; my variant is about obtaining better results than Slev's with fewer complications.

Actually, the tweak you mentioned may be more complicated than my approach. As I posted above, what makes the spell overpowered is that the caster doesn't have to be in the same dungeon section or in LOS to the target(s), which seems to be in line with the bottleneck combat position. My approach pretty much solves the issue in a very simple way while adding a layer of tactical depth to the spell (and to the game in general), which is what the spirit of AHQ is about in the end.

[Thanquol]

I appreciate the clarity, RECIVS. You've highlighted Line of Sight (LoS) and section-based targeting as key concerns, and they're certainly part of the problem. But I'd argue the deeper imbalance lies in the scale and scope of control the spell permits. It's not just that the caster can affect targets beyond line of sight – it's that they can potentially dominate elite threats like daemons, vampires, or Chaos warriors, without restriction or retaliation.

The original wording doesn't exclude Fearsome monsters – mindless undead, daemons, and large threats – which opens the door to turning creatures that should, by all thematic logic, be immune to manipulation. And with Fate Point manipulation, the average D12 roll becomes a tactical certainty, not a gamble.

Blocking the spell from affecting anything with the Fearsome Monster trait could be a simple and elegant fix, reducing its potency while preserving narrative cohesion.

This reflects the idea that truly terrifying or soulless entities cannot be easily mentally dominated by mortal magic.

Greywolf's interpretation – excluding Undead, Daemons, Heroes, and Special Characters – feels thematically sound. It narrows the spell's reach to grunts, which aligns with narrative logic. As for LoS and walls, that's more a matter of common sense than canon – but it's hard to imagine GW intended the spell to bypass physical barriers or function from across the map.

Also worth noting: AHQ's own LoS rules are built around common sense and physical obstruction. They mainly apply to ranged attacks and true projectile spells like Flames of Death, whereas Alter Allegiance is more akin to a mental intrusion – like Spirit Control – which was explicitly allowed to function through closed rooms. That distinction matters when evaluating whether LoS should even apply.

I'm curious how your approach addresses this without bloating the system. Because if we're talking balance, it's not just about where the caster stands – it's about what they're allowed to command.

I believe you're referring to Reforged; Re-Reforged comes in one PDF that doesn't mess with the magic system yet.

Yes, I glanced at Reforged earlier, and while the mechanics seemed mostly intact, the wording definitely took a more elaborate turn. It felt like someone tried to make the spell sound more arcane without really changing its bones.

Appearances may be misleading, though; my variant is about obtaining better results than Slev's with fewer complications.

Also, I had tried tracking down the Re-ReForged PDF and came up empty. Is it still in circulation, or has it slipped into the ether?

And yes, I appreciated your jab at Reforged's verbosity. I had the similar reaction – like reading a spell scroll penned by a bard after three goblets of wine and a flair for the dramatic.

Sarcasm: Yes-yes, clearly the spell was intended to bypass all known laws of physics, geometry, and tactical positioning. The mighty Grey Seer Thanquol himself – blessed be his genius – would cast it from behind a wall, through a troll, across a battlefield, and still have time to berate his incompetent underlings for not dying fast enough.

It's not broken, no-no. It's advanced. You just don't understand the nuance, fool-idiot. /Sarcasm

[RECIVS]

All spellcasting in the game is about Intelligence as far as I understand. All I'm saying is that, to me at least, in the case of Alter Allegiance it seems far-fetched, unrealistic, and a tad silly that the caster can "pick" targets he can't see—that's the actual problem with the spell regardless of the type of monster it may affect (the GM may keep the most powerful monsters out of sight or attack the spellcaster first with other enemies, as he would have to be in LOS, which makes the spell more interesting).

Are we saying then that the basic rules of LOS do not apply with the mentioned spell? I thought it was implied that they do apply. Does the spellcaster become a "seer" with x-ray vision all of the sudden? I don't see why he would be able to do that. As I said, my version doesn't change the wording of the spell at all; it only harmonizes it with the game system, which ends up making the spell more balanced and interesting at the same time. You may try the spell the way I'm proposing and see if it still feels overpowered to you.

You didn't say anything about why we should preserve the original mechanics even if they're faulty or produce unrealistic results such as the one presented above (or the bottleneck exploit for that matter). They don't seem to do the game system any justice. Is it pure nostalgia or is something else? It's a discussion that I find quite interesting, by the way, as it involves cognitive biases and other psychological phenomena of the type.