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'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

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'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby Zenithfleet » March 6th, 2023, 4:03 am

G'day all,

One of the biggest flaws of HeroQuest (in all editions as far as I know) is the Doorway Problem.

You know how it goes: the Morcar/Zargon player sets up an interesting room full of furniture and monsters artfully positioned in an interesting pattern, requiring the players to think about who goes where to fight what. At least, that seems to be how the designers intended each new room to work.

But what do players actually do? Stand outside the door and let their toughest character fight one monster at a time. Next room, repeat. Sigh.

Even as a kid I found this a bit tedious. Hardly anyone actually ENTERED a room to fight the monsters, as the powers of Chaos intended. In reality, it would probably be better in terms of maximising attack dice to all rush in and attack different monsters instead of leaving it to the Barbarian or Dwarf to do all the work ... but in my experience, players tend to take the 'safe' option of the doorway chokepoint. (If your players play differently, I'd be very interested to hear about it!)

I know plenty of people have come up with various house rules for this, or just accepted it as a basic flaw in the HQ game design. I played around with all kinds of ideas, such as being pulled into the room by the monsters and things like that. In the end, though, my own solution is pretty simple. I haven't tested it yet, though.

(The following wording uses the classic EU rules language rather than the NA style.)


At the start of the evil wizard player's turn, if there is at least one monster miniature on the board, the evil wizard player may roll 2 red dice. If the result is a double 1, he may place the wandering monster indicated in the Quest Notes in a vacant square adjacent to any character. If there is no adjacent space, he may place the wandering monster in any vacant space visible to the characters. The new monster can then move and attack as normal during the evil wizard player's turn.



Now you may well ask - why does this only happen if there is at least one monster on the board? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

No indeed, sirs and madams! ;)

Usually I've seen this kind of rule used as a 'time pressure' rule to keep the game moving and give the Morcar/Zargon player something to do when there are no monsters. And similar rules are used, very effectively, in other dungeon crawlers such as Games Workshop's later Warhammer Quest. (Anyone who has played WHQ will know the terror of rolling a 1 at the start of the turn ...)

But I've never seen a need for the 'time pressure' in HeroQuest for two reasons.

Firstly, the M/Z player always does have something to do: keep an eye on the Quest Book and update the board with doors, furniture, traps, etc. as the players move around.

Secondly, HeroQuest isn't a game of constant tension and haste. It's a game of exploration. That's half the fun. Hurrying the players along isn't the goal of the game, in my opinion.

(I should also note that in the classic EU version the Treasure deck is deadlier, and you're not supposed to keep potions found on cards between Quests, which limits the amount of treasure-farming you can safely do even if you hang around searching and searching ad nauseum.)

However, the one instance when you do want to give the players a kick up the pants is when they're standing outside the door to a roomful of monsters and refusing to come in. Under the standard rules, it's a stalemate until one side or the other gets bored and charges (usually Morcar/Zargon).

Because of this, I think the time pressure is needed ONLY when there are monsters around. If the players insist on staying outside the room, the Morcar/Zargon player will roll for a wandering monster, and eventually one will show up. And then another ... and another ... until the players finally realise that the best defence is a good offence, and move ahead into the room.

As a bonus, this rule gives Morcar/Zargon something else to do with the monsters rather than mindlessly attack. If you can keep at least one monster model alive on the board--maybe by fleeing past the players and running somewhere safe--then you get to keep rolling for the wandering monster every turn. The players may decide to backtrack and hunt down the survivor, or continue on, now under self-imposed time pressure.

Thematically, you could think of this as a 'noisy monsters' rule. When monsters are on the board, they know the players are around, and they're bellowing for reinforcements and raising the alarm--so wandering monsters might show up. When no monsters are on the board, it's quiet and safe (unless you draw the wrong treasure card, of course ...)

However, this is all theoretical and I haven't tried it out. What do you think? Will it work to solve the Doorway Problem? Is there a better way to do it? Is there even a problem to solve in the first place, or do your players never act like this?

(And would statues like unactivated Gargoyles also count as 'monsters on the board'?)
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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby HispaZargon » March 6th, 2023, 5:46 am

Interesting approach, thanks. Rolling 2 red dice is an old rule for this kind of topics, but I like the idea of hurry up only when there are monsters on the board.

However, I think a double 1 is not too high probability for WM appearance in those circunstances, so the effectiveness of this rule should be play-tested to know if increasing the probability would be recommended or not. Maybe just extending it to rolling any double number, not only number 1? If the monsters are advised because of the noises, I think relatively easy the apearance of more monsters...


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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby Stoner81 » March 6th, 2023, 8:29 am

Pretty neat idea but I think that the odds for rolling double 1's (1 in 36 if I recall correctly) is way to low for this to be effective. Add to this there are quests where the Wandering Monster may only be a Goblin or a Skeleton which isn't that scary in of itself unless you use custom stats for these monsters. With all of that being said though I do think you are sort of on to something with this but I also think that the Evil Wizard Deck basically does a similar thing except that this is way way easier.

Certainly something to think about that's for sure :)

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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby Zenithfleet » March 6th, 2023, 9:57 am

HispaZargon wrote:Interesting approach, thanks. Rolling 2 red dice is an old rule for this kind of topics, but I like the idea of hurry up only when there are monsters on the board.


Oops, I forgot to mention that I got the 'two red dice' idea from someone else. :oops: I can't remember who it was, though. They were using it when no monsters are on the board, instead of when they are on the board.

I was going to use 'roll a red die and if it's a 1 roll it again', but then I realised that rolling two dice is the same thing except faster. :lol:

HispaZargon wrote:However, I think a double 1 is not too high probability for WM appearance in those circunstances, so the effectiveness of this rule should be play-tested to know if increasing the probability would be recommended or not. Maybe just extending it to rolling any double number, not only number 1? If the monsters are advised because of the noises, I think relatively easy the apearance of more monsters...


Stoner81 wrote:Pretty neat idea but I think that the odds for rolling double 1's (1 in 36 if I recall correctly) is way to low for this to be effective. Add to this there are quests where the Wandering Monster may only be a Goblin or a Skeleton which isn't that scary in of itself unless you use custom stats for these monsters. With all of that being said though I do think you are sort of on to something with this but I also think that the Evil Wizard Deck basically does a similar thing except that this is way way easier.
Stoner81.


Yes, it's true that the probability of a double 1 is low. But that's deliberate. I don't want it to happen very often. Otherwise it might interfere with the game too much.

If there are lots of monsters to fight already on the board (e.g. in some of those jam-packed Kellar's Keep rooms), and it takes a while to cut a bloody swathe through them all, I don't want too many extra wandering monsters showing up in the middle of the fight.

It doesn't matter if you never see a wandering monster show up from this rule at all. In fact, I'd use an even lower probability, like a triple 1, if the game came with more dice.

Likewise, it doesn't matter if the quest's wandering monster is a weak one.

What matters is the certain knowledge that a monster will eventually show up if you wait long enough with an un-killed monster already on the board. And another, and another, and another. Infinite monsters if you wait long enough. It's a psychological trick to give the players a reason to move on, instead of stopping forever at a door to play a 'who blinks first' game with Morcar/Zargon.

Even if only a Goblin will show up in an hour of rolling, eventually there will be another Goblin ... and another ... and another ... If the players were to stay outside the room, they will sloooowly be worn down by sheer attrition from the occasional lucky hit. But, of course, they will realise that. So they won't bother to stand and wait outside the door in the first place. They can't win that game of chicken with Morcar/Zargon anymore. He or she can call their bluff and just patiently roll the dice each turn. They may as well just go straight into the room on the first turn. It short-circuits the stalemate. (Well, in theory.)

One of the missions in the game Space Hulk (the fancy 3rd edition from GW) has a similar problem. I think it's Mission 2. The Space Marines (who have guns) are supposed to block some shafts at the far end of the board, which Genestealer enemies come out of. If I remember correctly, the rules as written say that there is a limited number of Genestealer enemies in the mission. Once all 20 or so Genestealers are dead, or some of the shafts are blocked, the Marines win. The problem is that the Marines have no reason to move up to the shafts and block them. Genestealers don't have guns, so the Marines can just wait for the Genestealers to charge at them, and shoot them all dead from a safe distance, until none are left and they win automatically. And the Genestealer player knows this, so doesn't move the Genestealers toward the Marines at all. Both sides end up in a motionless stalemate. It's easily fixed by making the Genestealers infinite. That way, the Marine player must block the shafts, or else the enemies will never stop coming and the Marines will eventually be worn down.

Stoner81 wrote:but I also think that the Evil Wizard Deck basically does a similar thing except that this is way way easier.


The Evil Wizard deck is really cool. This is just a quick fix for anyone who doesn't have time to make their own cards, or who wants to keep things really simple and play as close to the official rules as possible.
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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby Stoner81 » March 6th, 2023, 11:23 am

Another option is to give monsters ranged weapons on the fly. So if Heroes do fall in to this pattern, the next room they open all the monsters have crossbow in addition to their regular weapon or something so suddenly you have multiple attacks at whomever is blocking the door so should make them thing twice about it :goblin:

Another thought I just had would be to allow it to happen on the roll of any double and if the quest books states the Wandering Monster as say 2 Orcs or 3 Goblins etc then only 1 monster of that type is placed instead. If a double 1 or double 6 is rolled then the full amount of Wandering Monsters is placed instead. A little more complex but certainly ups the ante of Heroes not hanging around trying to pick off monsters etc so kinda forces them to get on with it or the potentially suffer the consequences.

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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby burglekutt » March 6th, 2023, 12:30 pm

This all gives me an idea to put a string on a bell at the back of every room that a Hero needs to get to to stop your Wondering monsters from showing up. The Fimir back there just keeps tugging on the alarm until you can missile/ magic attack him to death or learn to jump furniture/ Push through enemies.

I also thought about a spell or feat that lets you bust a hole through a wall making a door 1 square wider.
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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby HispaZargon » March 6th, 2023, 5:12 pm

Not exactly the same topic, but about noises in the dungeon it was opened this thread time ago, if you are interested: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=6341&p=123736&hilit=Noise&sid=f8719c3030beba1410e2c2f18241d535#p123736


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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby The Admiral » March 8th, 2023, 6:44 am

Zenithfleet wrote:G'day all,

One of the biggest flaws of HeroQuest (in all editions as far as I know) is the Doorway Problem.

You know how it goes: the Morcar/Zargon player sets up an interesting room full of furniture and monsters artfully positioned in an interesting pattern, requiring the players to think about who goes where to fight what. At least, that seems to be how the designers intended each new room to work.

But what do players actually do? Stand outside the door and let their toughest character fight one monster at a time. Next room, repeat. Sigh.

Even as a kid I found this a bit tedious. Hardly anyone actually ENTERED a room to fight the monsters, as the powers of Chaos intended. In reality, it would probably be better in terms of maximising attack dice to all rush in and attack different monsters instead of leaving it to the Barbarian or Dwarf to do all the work ... but in my experience, players tend to take the 'safe' option of the doorway chokepoint. (If your players play differently, I'd be very interested to hear about it!)


Totally agree. This annoyed me for so long. Evil Wizard cards have been my solution. Stay there as long as you like, but I'm not sending my beasts to be lambs to the slaughter. You need to complete this quest, not me. The longer you take the worse for you it will get.

The Heroes are in an alien environment and haven't got time to dawdle. Sure, they still have the choice to be cautious, but it will come at a price. This has fixed all the problems, and now most of the time the Heroes have the fun of planning the room assault. Also, the Heroes must decide whether they open a new door before they are all in position, or wait for stragglers to catch up. Choices, choices. It has also increased my enjoyment as the EW player. I believe though that you will need to adjust the EW card rules as I found as written they were equally unenjoyable and repetitive. My EW cards come in more slowly and at a rate comparable with the size of the party. I have a more random nature to their play, and there is no spawning in corridors behind the Heroes, as this creates its own tedium which quickly became apparent.


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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby Zenithfleet » March 10th, 2023, 1:04 pm

HispaZargon wrote:However, I think a double 1 is not too high probability for WM appearance in those circunstances, so the effectiveness of this rule should be play-tested to know if increasing the probability would be recommended or not. Maybe just extending it to rolling any double number, not only number 1? If the monsters are advised because of the noises, I think relatively easy the apearance of more monsters...


Just want to note here that the chance of rolling any double on two dice is ... 1 in 6. Which is the same as rolling a 1 on one die. Or rolling a black shield on a combat die. :)

The chance of rolling a particular double (e.g. a double 1) is 1 in 36, I think. So it's quite low. I tried it out every turn for a whole quest just to see what would happen and never once rolled a double 1.

So if you want wandering monsters to show up fairly often for more challenge, roll a combat die - if it's a black shield the WM turns up. (This was actually a house rule suggested by Games International magazine in 1989, in the issue where they interviewed Stephen Baker about Heroquest.)

If you don't want wandering monsters to actually show up, but you just want a potential threat to make sure the heroes don't stop forever at a door, then the very low chance of rolling a double 1 is a better idea.
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Re: 'Noisy Monsters' rule to solve the Doorway Problem

Postby rapatuan » March 27th, 2023, 6:23 pm

I like the rule proposed by Games International Magazine for its simplicity. For its interest, I reproduce the whole brief article below:

Gl # 9 , September 1989
VARIANTS
The Games Clinic
Minor surgery for games feeling under the weather.

HeroQuest
Philip A. Murphy
Last issue’s review pointed out some problems with this game. The following amendments improved the game greatly for us:

For a lone adventurer, or any number of non co-operative players - No change

For two co-operative adventurers - At the end of each of his turns, Morcar rolls a combat die. If the result is a ‘white shield’, he may place a wandering monster anywhere on the board, in any room or corridor that the players have visited but no longer occupy. If such an area does not exist, Morcar does not place a wandering monster.

For three or four co-operative players - As above, plus - increase the ‘hit points’ of orcs, fimirs, zombies, and all ‘one off’ monsters by one hit point. Increase the hit points of chaos warriors and the dreaded gargoyle by two.

The effect of the first of these adjustments is to speed up the adventurers, since the more turns they spend on the quest, the more forces Morcar has. This discourages them somewhat from searching every little nook and cranny for traps and treasure.
The second amendment gives the Morcar player a chance once the adventurers have obtained some equipment - the barbarian with chainmail, helmet, shield and battle axe, is truly a ferocious sight to behold
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