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Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Discuss new Rules for HeroQuest.

Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby arntisdale » Wednesday March 10th, 2021 5:48pm

Some time ago I posted an alternate to the colored German dice that I thought provided increased variability. Since then, I've been messing around with the idea, I've come up with a potential use: Blacksmith upgrades (and a kazillion other things). So, check this out. First things first, here are what the 'other' colored dice would look like (some of these sets don't exist except in my head).
ColoredDice.PNG

It's worth noting that each die type has a totally unique combo for :skull: :whiteshield: and :blackshield:
Once you've processed that, here's my idea as it exists at the moment.
UpgradeSystem.PNG

So, what do you think? Ideas for improvement/extension? Criticism? Will this work? Would you use it? Am I crazy?
Please share your thoughts.
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Re: Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday March 10th, 2021 7:45pm

Interesting. So using classic skulls instead of the remake design as you did for the shields? Not saying you're wrong, you do what you like of course...
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Re: Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby arntisdale » Wednesday March 10th, 2021 8:10pm

Yep. I like the old skulls more than the new, and the new shields better than the old.
Just interesting? Comon' Kurgan! You're a master of Ye Olde Inn's forums. Let me know what you think about the mechanics.
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Re: Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby Kurgan » Thursday March 11th, 2021 2:01am

Well that's the thing... a lot of ideas I find interesting that I wouldn't use myself. Sure, if you were to invite me over I'd play using your system. You say for 50% of the value you can upgrade the strength of a pre-existing weapon. That means if the weapon breaks or gets rusted there will be "many tears" as you say. I guess it's cheaper than buying a new weapon...

I guess for me while I like the idea, at the same time I like to keep things simple. To me you just save up your gold to buy a new better weapon, give the old one away, keep it as a backup or you sell it for a little extra gold and it evens out in the end. You're trying to get the player to invest more and have it progress like a character might progress.

I guess if this were a video game, then sometimes the Armory wouldn't be accessible at all, or it might have fewer options or it might have different prices. Maybe the blacksmith would become a better idea.

Rolling dice is fun! So more opportunities to roll fun dice is great. I like having cards too. Maybe other things have to change to make it seem worthwhile in the rest of the game. For now it seems like extra complexity. I don't know how I would change it to make it "better." Maybe some randomness that would change how the armory operates, such that these blacksmithing options might be more tempting for the player? I'm also assuming this is taking place between quests. Are we running into blacksmiths during "town" missions? Are there any inside dungeons? Can a Hero learn blacksmithing himself and use the skills anytime? These are questions I would be asking if I were trying to implement the system.

Maybe I'm better at asking questions than giving the answers. I think you may have something here, it just needs refinement in a fire, and more shaping with a hammer, so to speak, and you can make your dream a reality. Hopefully the next person who reads this will have a better idea. If you want, just pick some stuff from your list, put it out there, play a game with it, see how it is received. The delayed gratification of having to wait for your weapon to be "done" seems cool ("too bad Grimo the dwarf died, I finished this awesome weapon for him, you guys want to buy it?"). In the end its your call.
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Re: Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby cornixt » Thursday March 11th, 2021 10:43am

I can't say I really understand why the blue/orange dice have such strong attacks/defense at random moments. I'm not sure there even needs to be two different weakened dice for weapons and two different strengthened dice with different paths. Why not one single progressive upgrade path that goes through all of the dice?

If we were to add new dice with different distributions of symbols, I feel like you'd want to have a specific aim for each one. You can double up in some areas because adding skulls can remove shields and vice versa. I'd go with something more like this:

Generic super dice:
S SS SS W WW BB

Strong Hero Attack/Defense
S SS SSS W WW WW

Strong Monster Defense or General Weak Attack/Defense
S S W B B BB

I haven't put that much thought into it, so it probably needs a bit of finessing. You can add dice in between of course.


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Re: Different Colored Dice + Blacksmith Upgrades

Postby arntisdale » Thursday March 11th, 2021 9:05pm

Thanks for the replies! Hearing your thoughts keeps me thinking about what I actually want this to do, and I do like to think I can count on the Inn to help me out with feedback on my HeroQuest ideas.

I have thought about this a lot lately, here's some things I was looking at:
by the way, I think I'll change the blue die to have double skulls on one face instead of triple skulls. Below is some basic considerations regarding die progression
WeaponDieProgression.PNG

One of the main things I was looking at when I was considering upgrade progression was the average damage/defense output of a single die roll (see rollavg column)
I was also wanting to use the die to give weapons a bit more character.
For instance, comparing the purple die to the red, you can see that they both have the same roll average, but the purple one has higher accuracy, while the red one has higher damage limit.

Consider this, each % given below is for the outcome on any single roll of 2d6, all calculations are rounded to the nearest whole %

rolling 2 purple dice
11% chance of missing
89% chance to land a hit, where there's a
44% chance to hit for 1 damage, and
44% chance to hit for 2 damage
To me, this weapon feels extremely reliable and very accurate, I have really good odds on doing 2 damage, but it can never dish out anything more.

rolling 2 red dice
25% chance of missing
75% chance to land a hit, where there's a
33% chance to do 1 damage
28% chance to do 2 damage
11% chance to do 3 damage, and
3% chance to do 4 damage
To me, this weapon feels fairly reliable, I know I'm going to miss more often, but hey, I have a chance of clobbering a bad guy with 3 or even 4 damage

See what I mean?

I avoided a single progressive path because I want the heroes to have a choice that fits their playstyle, maybe they like dual-wielding, and want to go for big accuracy, or maybe they like womping things with a big stick, and want to be able to dish out big damage in one swing. With the blacksmith system, they could even end up choosing a combo and be rolling 1purple and 1red, if they chose that upgrade path

Regarding the blue die for attack and the orange die for defense, consider this:

rolling 2 blue dice on an attack
69% chance of missing
31% chance to land a hit, where there's a
28% chance to do 2 damage, and
3% chance to do 4 damage
To me, this weapon is unreliable, but it can surprise you with an especially strong attack every great once in a while. It's like having a 30 lb rock on the end of an 6 foot pole.

You'll get the same exact odds considering rolling 2 orange dice for defense, successful defense only 31% of the time with 28% defending for 2 and 3% defending for 4
This one feels like poorly designed armor with tough spots. Like having a buckler strapped to your chest. Your body coverage is low, but hey, if they hit that spot then you'll be fine.

One thing that's tripping me up is how to record upgrades simply. I do not want to make one card for every possible die combination, I don't want to write on my cards, I suppose it could be tracked on the hero sheet, but that feels like it could get messy.

Another thing, is where do the 'weaker' dice come in? The shop still sells standard equipment that rolls all white dice.
I suppose you could have the heroes find some old equipment layin around the dungeon that's lower quality than the stuff at the shop, but I'm still not completely sure on how I want to handle that.
They seem like they'd be useful for temporary buff effects. - drink a potion and add 1 blue die to your next attack
I suppose I could put 2 levels on my weapon breakage system, where a weapon's dice lose an upgrade level on a break, and if any die drops below the lowest tier die, then it breaks for good. That also seems tricky to track, but would make a very interesting mechanic!
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