Mind points for rerolls?

[hightechartist]

Hey everyone, can I get some thoughts from the HQ veterans?

After not having played HeroQuest since I was a just a lad, I finally caved and bought a decent quality HeroQuest game (US version) off of eBay and am looking forward to reliving my nostalgia days.

I don't really want to go crazy with house rules to start with, but I do have some game design experience and one thing that really bugged me was how nearly useless Mind Points are. I understand there are a couple Chaos Spells where they come into play and they are used more in the expansions that I don't have, but I wanted to make them feel more relevant in the "core" game (base game? vanilla? What do you guys call it?).

My thought was that Mind Points could be spent to reroll dice in some capacity. The more powerful option is to reroll any die you rolled by spending a Mind Point (limit one reroll per turn). Less powerful versions limit what rolls can be rerolled. Like maybe you can't reroll attacks but can reroll disarming traps, defending, movement, etc. Or even more limited and say for example you can only reroll a defending die. It can also be limited to once per "encounter" instead of once per turn to scale back the power even more, if necessary.

What are your thoughts? If the only tweak you were making to the rules was a reroll with mind points, how limited of a reroll would you allow in your games (or do you think it wrecks the balance in any form?)

[mitchiemasha]

The mind points aren't useless. There's a hidden balance in the characters. The Mind point pays for your skill and your total attributes add up to 16.

The Barbarian has weapon skill and brute strength (+1Ad6). The Dwarf has weapon skill and traps. The Elf has weapon skill and 1 magic. The wizard has 3 magic.

Barbarian: "B8M2:10" "Weapons Y:1(A2D2:4)5" "Skill +1A:1" = 16
Dwarf: "B7M3:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Skill Traps:1" = 16
Elf: "B6M4:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Magic:1" = 16
Wizard: "B4M6:10" "Weapons N:0 (A1D2:3)3" "Magic:3" = 16

B+M=10
A+D+S=6

S=Spells and/or Skill

Rerolls are usually handled by FATE points. Rewarded from Gypsies, a potion perhaps, or using the Advanced HeroQuest chaos tokens for the baddies. Very important when play grown ups, the game is too easily mechanic'd and the EW gets to do nothing, room wipe after room wipe.

The main problem is it makes the Heroes stronger and they're already too strong, especially with a group who can play. But, the idea would be awesome, especially for a unique character or if you do something to strengthen the EW, like weapon damage/broken etc

[hightechartist]

The mind points aren't useless. There's a hidden balance in the characters. The Mind point pays for your skill and your total attributes add up to 16.

The Barbarian has weapon skill and brute strength (+1Ad6). The Dwarf has weapon skill and traps. The Elf has weapon skill and 1 magic. The wizard has 3 magic.

Barbarian: "B8M2:10" "Weapons Y:1(A2D2:4)5" "Skill +1A:1" = 16
Dwarf: "B7M3:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Skill Traps:1" = 16
Elf: "B6M4:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Magic:1" = 16
Wizard: "B4M6:10" "Weapons N:0 (A1D2:3)3" "Magic:3" = 16

B+M=10
A+D+S=6

S=Spells and/or Skill

Rerolls are usually handled by FATE points. Rewarded from Gypsies, a potion perhaps, or using the Advanced HeroQuest chaos tokens for the baddies. Very important when play grown ups, the game is too easily mechanic'd and the EW gets to do nothing, room wipe after room wipe.

The main problem is it makes the Heroes stronger and they're already too strong, especially with a group who can play. But, the idea would be awesome, especially for a unique character or if you do something to strengthen the EW, like weapon damage/broken etc

Thank you for getting back to me. I'm afraid I don't see how the A+D+S figures into the value of the Mind Points. It seems each character has 6 "ADS" and 10 Body and Mind, but the issue of Mind doing very little in the core game still stands. I just want to give it a bit more apparent value to the players.

I take your point on the game being too easy, though, so I'll limit the use to once per fight.

Also, since it is so easy, any recommendations on house rules to up the difficulty in a simple, elegant, and interesting way?

[mitchiemasha]

Also, since it is so easy, any recommendations on house rules to up the difficulty in a simple, elegant, and interesting way?

I could comment here but that would mess up your thread, it's best to keep this related to "Mind points for rerolls". You should seek out those other threads and contribute there. We don't mind Necromancers or Zombies at the INN. Discovering what you like best for the game is quite a task, a quest in itself, one worth having. I spent a long time lost in the depths of these very pages, seeking, searching out the knowledge long forgotten. You could start with checking out the links in my signature, others here have the same. Lots of ideas compiled... Not always obvious to why but there's usually strong reasoning, no mod being a just because.

I'm afraid I don't see how the A+D+S figures into the value of the Mind Points.

Because if you don't have enough MIND the hero can't have the skill. A Hero can't have 3 sets of magic with only 2 MIND, 3 sets of magic requires 6 MIND, which has to be deducted from the total of 10, leaving 4 body and no more for weapons (unless you want to risk 3 body). The mind required to own the skill reduces the total of hits you can take, Body. But this is already overthinking it. And yes, a skill might require 2 mind points to own but is still only 1 skill or in the case of the Wizard 3 skills, 1 skill for each element, 2M each 6M in total. Now we're definitely overthinking it. Another way to look at the Wizard is 4 MIND unlocks Magic 1 set, and then it's another Mind point for each set after. Some like to use the Talisman, Uk +2 US +1 Mind to give the wizard the other set of Magic, the ELf now owning the Elf spells, which fixes his maths not quite maxing out the logic, potential.

Lets not forget the Wizard will have his healing spell, so he's just as strong as the barbarian anyways, just ironically, he's going to need more thinking about MIND, to play well. Mind doesn't play much in the game... but it's very important in the design. Wait til the chaos spells start popping up too.

[mitchiemasha]

I will add... I've already created characters that sacrifice a Mind point. Some use it for Wizards to reclaim spells, or attempt too.

Necromancer: -1M to attempt to raise the dead
Healer: -1M to heal another Hero
Thiriokinesis: -1M to attempt to control a beast

Mind is also used for Sneak and Werewolf, the Werewolf being quite unique.

I'm trying to think of a reroll character, perhaps something luck orientated like Leprechaun. The treasure deck does need a rabbits foot.

[hightechartist]

Ok, thanks for the feedback!

[Pancho]

Welcome to the forum. You chose a good topic for your first posts!

I agree that mind points are very underused in the base game, but they do start coming into their own in the expansions. It all depends on whether you want to wait until then. Personally I’m fine with the Heroes during the first 14 quests learning the way of the warrior, the wizard, and the scout, before moving on to different concepts. Mitchie makes a good point about the Heroes original mind points allowing certain skills for the different Hero types.

One simple way I use to make mind points more useful, from Kellars Keep onwards, is the activation of spell scrolls. A Hero doesn’t just use the spell scroll, he has to roll less than or equal to his mind point score on one red die to successfully ‘release’ the spell from the scroll. The Wizard won’t have a problem but the knucklehead Barbarian who can barely read wont get on too well. If failed, the scroll is retained so that the Hero can try again on another turn, but he does waste his action for the round.
It works well because some players give their scrolls to the Wizard, making him the main repository for such arcane items (which is as it should be).

[Pancho]

Oh, and as for house rules that increase the games difficulty, I’d say that these two are an absolute must;

1. US body points for the monsters
2. A deck of Evil Wizard cards for Morcar/Zargon. http://english.yeoldeinn.com/downloads/ ... wizard.pdf

[hightechartist]

Oh, and as for house rules that increase the games difficulty, I’d say that these two are an absolute must;

1. US body points for the monsters
2. A deck of Evil Wizard cards for Morcar/Zargon. http://english.yeoldeinn.com/downloads/ ... wizard.pdf

I'd seen the Evil Wizard cards while looking around. I really like them!

[mitchiemasha]

A Hero doesn’t just use the spell scroll, he has to roll less than or equal to his mind point score on one red die to successfully ‘release’ the spell from the scroll. The Wizard won’t have a problem but the knucklehead Barbarian who can barely read wont get on too well. If failed, the scroll is retained so that the Hero can try again on another turn, but he does waste his action for the round.
It works well because some players give their scrolls to the Wizard, making him the main repository for such arcane items (which is as it should be).

I really like that idea and it fits perfectly with the Mind Test of other skills, like sneak etc. Black Spell Scrolls are also a good idea, adding functionality to the Sorcerers table. The wizard uses an action to inscribe the scroll with a know spell. Latter quest these can be cursed, a bit of a nasty surprise for the wizard, needing a roll to protect himself, his Mind.