HQ: Heroes & Villains (knightkrawler) - DISCUSSION

[Daedalus]

I just decided to allow a search for secret doors even though monsters are present.
- it allows for tactical play, heroes escaping and being followed, opening up possibilities for flooding the heroes with monsters in the next room
- it makes the game faster or at least less tedious with the three search actions.

I think this is also potentially more interesting by setting up a tactical choice regarding pacing. Should a player risk a new combat to protect against drawing an additional Morcar Card on a future turn? I think using your new rule, a round of turns following combat would likely look like either this with a previous search for secret doors during combat:

1st hero - search for traps
2nd hero - 1st search for treasure
3rd hero - 2nd search for treasure
4th hero - search for treasure in piece of furniture or just move if no furniture

or this without a previous search:

1st hero - search for traps
2nd hero - 1st search for treasure
3rd hero - 2nd search for treasure
4th hero - search for secret doors

As shown with the 4th Hero, nearly the same tactical protection against drawing an additional Morcar Card is gained by forfeiting a search for treasure in a piece of furniture. In the many rooms without furniture, it probably wouldn't make sense to risk an early combat search just so one Hero can move one turn earlier and wait for backup.

I think you'd need to allow the possibility of an extra treasure search for the 4th Hero to make an early search an appealing choice in all rooms. Perhaps you could set the maximum number of standard treasure searches equal to dead monsters? However, I realize you have already chosen a treasure-search limit and your secret-door rule also allows for an escape from combat, so maybe just leave the rule alone.

[knightkrawler]

Yeah, I had these thoughts, too, pondering long and hard about them.
I do think I'll leave the rule if only for the tactical play it allows my heroes.

Or I'll play many quests with the one of the optional rules already written up where traps and secret doors or treasure and secret doors respectively are found through one search.
Then we could have:

With previous search for traps and secret doors
1st hero - disarm traps
2nd hero - 1st search for treasure
3rd hero - 2nd search for treasure
4th hero - search for treasure in piece of furniture or just move if no furniture

Without the previous search it would be the same without the disarming (which they would only do in a room with more than two traps, to eliminate the probability of triggering them later - it's hard to make note of so many squares).

With previous search for traps
1st hero - disarm traps
2nd hero - 1st search for treasure
3rd hero - 2nd search for treasure
4th hero - search for treasure in piece of furniture or just move if no furniture

or, not bothering with the disarming, now two heroes are free to move and encounter early. And that's what I like.
I'm well protected against loitering with my doom cards (as they're called now) and the setting up of a villain in a room where last a wandering villain card was drawn if there's no villain on the board.
This needs playtesting and is the most likely thing to be changed at some point. I need to get my cards printed pretty freakin' soon in order to playtest.
And that means... Photoshop. And I have no clue of that...

[Anderas]

You have GimmeYerGolds great 225 edition with photoshop cards for everything
And I recently posted an EWP deck in the ewp deck thread in all computer formats you like. The specialty about my EWP deck is just that it is professional ready in a standard play card format and with bleed area like the pros want to have it. You could just open the .psd part of it and change what you like.

[Daedalus]

More for the Concluding Your Turn section:

Concluding Your Turn

After you have completed a turn for each of your villains, your full turn is ended and a new round begins with the first hero. However, if at the beginning of your turn there are no villains you could move and take an action with you now draw a Morcar card.

I'd change "...you could move and take an action with you now draw a Morcar card." > ...you could move and take an action with, you now draw a Morcar card.

Read the text on the card carefully for yourself and decide how and if you want to use its effect most efficiently. You may
either discard it immediately so that the card takes effect immediately
or keep it face up behind the Morcar screen to discard it between the full turns of two individual villains. The card then takes effect immediately.

I'd change "Read the text on the card carefully for yourself and decide how and if you want to use its effect most efficiently...." > Read the text on the card carefully to yourself and decide how and when to use its effect most efficiently.
I'd change "...You may either discard it immediately so that the card takes effect immediately or keep it face up behind the Morcar screen to discard it between the full turns of two individual villains. The card then takes effect immediately." > You may either discard a Morcar Card so that it takes effect immediately or keep it face up behind the Morcar screen. If kept, you may later discard a card for its immediate effect before any subsequent villain's turn. ("...between the full turns of two individual villains" could be read to prohibit playing a saved Morcar Card at the beginning of Morcar's turn before the first villian is activated, as that turn is preceded by a Hero's turn.)

When a Morcar card is discarded, it is immediately shuffled back into the full deck.

I'd change "...it is immediately shuffled back into the full deck." > ...immediately shuffle it back into the full deck.

As an alternative to drawing a Morcar card, you may also activate any one villain figure in any square within a room where last a 'Wandering Villain' was found and immediately move and attack with it.

I'd change "...you may also activate any one villain figure in any square within a room where last a 'Wandering Villain' was found and immediately move and attack with it." > ...you may instead activate any one villain figure within a room containing a 'Wandering Villain', immediately moving and attacking with it.
This leaves me confused, perhaps because I don't understand 'Wandering Villain' correctly. It seems to me a 'Wandering Villain' is a villain "you could move and take an action with," as it is a villian placed on the board by a Wandering Monster Card. Doesn't that preclude drawing a Morcar Card, as stated at the top of the Concluding Your Turn section? If so, I'd omit this paragraph. If not, I'd say clarifying the circumstances of "...a room where last a 'Wandering Villain' was found..." would be helpful.

OPTIONAL: On Heroes' Heels
You may both draw a Morcar card and activate an additional villain in case there were no monsters you could have moved and taken an action with at the beginning of your turn. Alternatively, you can choose to incorporate either a Morcar card draw or the activation of an additional villain at the end of your turn regardless of other villains being on the gameboard. Or both.

I'd change "...or the activation of an additional villain at the end of your turn regardless of other villains being on the gameboard." > ...or the activation of an additional villain at the end of your turn, regardless of other villains being on the gameboard.
Similar to my 'Wandering Villian' confusion above, there must be something going on I don't yet understand with "activating an additional villain in case there were no monsters you could have moved and taken an action with at the beginning of your turn." If there is an explanation in certain Morcar Cards or in other rule entries concerning the circumstance of "...activate an additional villian...", I feel some kind of reference would help here (and possibly in the previous section.)

OPTIONAL: Villains Opening Doors
Any villain with at least two current mind points may open a door if the room or corridor section into which it leads contains at least one other door or secret door that has been opened.

Any villain that is given a proper name in the questnotes may open any door or secret door. However, Morcar only activates the doors, not the other contents of a room they pass through. These are only activated as soon as they are in a hero's line of sight.

I'd change "Any villain that is given a proper name in the questnotes may open any door or secret door. However, Morcar only activates the doors, not the other contents of a room they pass through. These are only activated as soon as they are in a hero's line of sight." > Any villain that is given a proper name in the Quest Notes may open any door or secret door. However, Morcar only places the opened doors, not the contents of any room they pass through. These contents are only placed when they are in a Hero's line of sight.
I'd consider further changing "...Morcar only places the opened doors, not the contents of any room they pass through...." > ...Morcar only places any opened doors in a Hero's line of sight, not the contents of any room the villain passes through.... (This way the villian's progress can't be tracked by the Heroes.)

[knightkrawler]

Thank you very much, kind sir. Editing will take place soon.

[knightkrawler]

Update
Suggestions from page 6 of this thread taken, worked over, and implemented.
Many thanks to everyone involved.

The rulebook is quite finished except for layout and final details that depend on other files like the questbook, which I'll hopefully write this week.
Also, cards are being further elaborated with photoshopping commencing soon.

Daedalus, both your unclarities meant clarities for me, as always. Thank you very much for your effort.

Here's the clarified versions of those two things:
As an alternative to drawing a fate card, you may instead activate any one villain figure within a room where last a “Wandering Villain” card was drawn, immediately moving and attacking with it.

and

Any coin belonging to a dead hero is immediately discarded as it is forefeited as a wergild to their family. Their treasure, artefact, and equipment cards, however, are not lost by default. They are freely divided among all heroes in the same room or corridor section where and when the hero died. Only if no hero is in that room they are discarded immediately.

Gold found during the current quest is lost, but other things worth gold are not. For example my gem card reads:
“Tucked deep into the toe of an old stinking boot you find a gem.”
Keep this card until after the quest. Then discard it in exchange for 36 coin
I think that's a nice compromise and satisfying the need for reasoning as wished for by cynthialee, BB, and others.

I will also look for other such instances of "unreasoned"/mechanical rules that may leave players wonder during my final editing round.

[Daedalus]

[Whoops--I just noticed after posting this monster that you have since finished your write-up in the intervening time. Oh well, use it or ignore it. Also, let me know if you wish to bother any more with sections b and c. -edit]

Next excerpt.
in places, graphics are gonna replace sizeable chunks of the explanations and definitions, like with corridor sections and the types of adjacency.
Parts of those read horrible, I know.

Graphics.sound like a cool idea. Meanwhile, let's fix some of that text! Of course, a lot is based on opinions, so ignore whatever doesn't fit your style. First, section a:

Gameplay, Movement & Space

a) Rounds & Turns

As most other boardgames do, HQ – Heroes & Villains builds on rounds and turns. Gameplay begins with the player to the left of Morcar and continues clockwise. Then each hero makes his turn, after which it is Morcar's turn. Thus, a round is completed; a round consists of one turn for each hero on the board plus one for Morcar. These rounds continue as long as at least one hero is on the board.

I'd change "...Then each hero makes his turn, after which it is Morcar's turn...." > ...Then each hero takes his turn, after which it is Morcar's turn....

To lose a turn means a figure may neither move nor take an action.

Maybe add something about free actions here, if they apply. For instance, can a Hero trade equipment or pick up a dead Hero's equipment? I'd assume yes if you don't explicitly state it.

If at least one hero completes the mission, the heroes as a group have won the quest. Only if all of them die, the quest must be repeated.

I'd change "If at least one hero completes the mission, the heroes as a group have won the quest...." > If at least one Hero completes the stated goal of a Quest's Parchment Section, the Heroes as a group win the Quest....
I'd change "...Only if all of them die, the quest must be repeated." > ...A Quest need be repeated only if every Hero dies.

Rolling Dice for Turn Orders (OPTIONAL)
After a round is completed, each player rolls a D6. The player with the highest number has the first turn for that round, the player with the lowest number the last. Roll a second time if two or more had the same number. You might want to acquire some more dice because this variant is easier to keep track of if each player has an own die to keep in front of him or even two to further include movement rolls, while you are at it.

I'd change "After a round is completed, each player rolls a D6...." > At the start of every round, each player rolls a D6....
I'd change "The player with the highest number has the first turn for that round, the player with the lowest number the last. Roll a second time if two or more had the same number...." > These rolls determine Hero turn order, from highest to lowest. Reroll ties....
I'd change "You might want to acquire some more dice because this variant is easier to keep track of if each player has an own die to keep in front of him or even two to further include movement rolls, while you are at it." > You might want to acquire extra dice for the playes to more easily keep track of their turns by placing their rolls in front of them.

Tactical Hero Turns (OPTIONAL)
If the hero players don't tend to draw out decisions and tactical play, Morcar may allow them to decide on the turn order for any given round between them. Use an hourglass or a stopwatch for the players to make up their mind. The complete turn order has to be decided on at the beginning of the round and cannot be changed. Morcar has his turn last.

I'd change "If the hero players don't tend to draw out decisions and tactical play, Morcar may allow them to decide on the turn order for any given round between them. Use an hourglass or a stopwatch for the players to make up their mind. The complete turn order has to be decided on at the beginning of the round and cannot be changed. Morcar has his turn last." > Morcar may allow the Heroes to decide on their turn order for any given round. They must decide at the beginning of the round and this order cannot be changed afterward. If the Heroes draw out this decision, Morcar may introduce a time limit with an egg timer or stopwatch. Exceeding the time limit defaults back to the previous turn order. Morcar always has his turn last. (I Don't feel it is necessary to specifically mention an egg timer or stopwatch. "Time limit" should suffice, in my opinion.)

Each player may play their turn in one of these two orders:

MOVE and then TAKE ONE ACTION
or
TAKE ONE ACTION and then MOVE

I'd change "Each player may play their turn in one of these two orders:" > Each player may take their turn in one of these two orders:

A figure cannot use part of their movement points, then take their action, then use more movement points. They can also not take part of their action, then move, then take the rest of their action. The consequences of an action take effect immediately.

I'd change "A figure cannot use part of their movement points, then take their action, then use more movement points." > A figure cannot use part of their movement points, take their action, and then use more movement points.
I'd change "...They can also not take part of their action, then move, then take the rest of their action...." > ...Nor can a figure take part of their action, move, and then take the rest of their action....

Heroes may take one of the following actions each turn.
Attack - Cast a Spell - Use a Skill - Search for Treasure - Search for Secret Doors - Search for Traps - Disarm a Trap
Villains may take one of the following actions each turn.
Attack - Cast a Spell
Villains cannot take any other action listed for the heroes.
For both a hero and a villain to cast a spell or to use a skill, they must have the corresponding spell or skill card in their deck.

I'd change "Heroes may take one of the following actions each turn." > Heroes may take one of the following actions each turn:
I'd change "Villains may take one of the following actions each turn." > Villains may take one of the following actions each turn:

After a player has completed their turn, they flip over their turn marker from green circle up to red cross up. As soon as the round has been completed, all players flip over their turn markers back to green circle up. The green circle means 'have yet to take my turn...', the red cross means 'have taken my turn...' for the current round.

(Since Morcar always goes last, I figure that player doesn't need a turn marker. Therefore, I'd specify their use for Hero players.)
I'd open with Each Hero player keeps a turn marker before them, which begins green-circle up. This face indicates a Hero has't yet taken a turn.
I'd change "After a player has completed their turn, they flip over their turn marker from green circle up to red cross up...." > After completing their turn, a.Hero player flips over their turn marker from green-circle up to red-cross up to show the Hero is through for the round....
I'd change "As soon as the round has been completed, all players flip over their turn markers back to green circle up. The green circle means 'have yet to take my turn...', the red cross means 'have taken my turn...' for the current round." > As soon as a round has been completed, all Hero players flip their turn markers back to green-circle up to show their Heroes may again take their turns in the next round.

During your turn, you, Morcar, may move and take one action or take one action and move with each of villain that is currently on the board and has at least one body point left. This means that your turn is made up of the individual turns of as many villains as you have at your disposal at the beginning of your turn. Always complete the turn of a villain before you start the next villain's turn. Do not seperate movement from action of any villain as each hero does not seperate their movement from their action.

(Addressing these rules directly to the Morcar player as "you" or "your" feels off to me. Your mileage may vary, but I'd reserve such cases for fluff text.)
I'd change "During your turn, you, Morcar, may move and take one action or take one action and move with each of villain that is currently on the board and has at least one body point left." > During Morcar's turn, each villain on the board with at least 1 body point may move and take one action or take one action and move....
I'd change "...This means that your turn is made up of the individual turns of as many villains as you have at your disposal at the beginning of your turn..." > ...This means that Morcar's turn is made up of the individual turns of all active villains available that turn.... (This includes villains summoned in the current Morcar turn.)
I'd change "...Always complete the turn of a villain before you start the next villain's turn. Do not seperate movement from action of any villain as each hero does not seperate their movement from their action." > ...A villain always completes its movement and action together before another villain's turn starts (like Hero turns.)

Alternating Hero/Morcar Turns (OPTIONAL)
To play the game with a tactical twist, implement individual villain turns in between hero turns. To be precise, after a hero has taken their entire turn (including a passed turn where the hero does neither move nor take an action), Morcar takes one complete turn with one villain. During a round, each villain may of course only take one turn. Thus, the turn order might look like this: Warrior – Ork1 – spellcaster – Templar 3 – Adept – Templar 1 – Quester – Revenant 2 – Ork 5 – Goblin 4 and so on. Use the villains' base inscriptions and the Villain Tracker to keep up.
[The Villain Tracker is a word document appendix]

I'd change "Thus, the turn order might look like this: Warrior – Ork1 – spellcaster – Templar 3 – Adept – Templar 1 – Quester – Revenant 2 – Ork 5 – Goblin 4 and so on." > Thus, the turn order might look like this: Warrior – Orc 1 – Spellcaster – Orc 2 – Adept – Goblin 1 – Quester – Goblin 2 – Goblin 3.

[knightkrawler]

Please do bother me.
It will take some time to finish, anyway.
Doing cards, charts, legends, quests right now, so there's plenty of editing of the rulebook ahead anyway.

[Daedalus]

Now for part b:

b) Figures & Squares

The game board has a grid pattern dividing it into equally large squares. Each figure occupies exactly one square and a square may never contain more than one figure. No figure may move into a square occupied by another figure except if that figure's player expressly allows it.

(What of large figures? Are they left as exceptions to be defined later?)
I'd change "...Each figure occupies exactly one square and a square may never contain more than one figure...." > ...Each figure occupies exactly one square and a square may never contain more than one figure at the end of a turn.... (The addition is meant to accommodate movement through occupied squares.)

Distances are counted in squares in such a way that you count each square orthogonally adjacent to the last while moving into it with your figure. You may change direction at any point while moving.

(This took a couple of readthroughs. My feeling is everybody already knows how to move through the spaces of a boardgame. I'm for something less technical here.)
I'd change "Distances are counted in squares in such a way that you count each square orthogonally adjacent to the last while moving into it with your figure...." > Figures move orthogonally between squares, up to their rolled movement (Heroes) or their movement score (villains.)...

Two squares touching edge to edge are orthogonally adjacent. They are at a distance of one square (movement point).
Two squares touching at only one corner are diagonally adjacent. They are at a distance of two squares (movement points).
A square is never considered adjacent to any other square that is part of a different room or corridor section except when two squares on opposite sides of a door or secret door touch. You cannot move through walls. Only through a door standing on top of a wall or through a secret door adjacent to it may you enter a room.

I'd change "Two squares touching edge to edge are orthogonally adjacent. They are at a distance of one square (movement point)...." > Two squares sharing a side are orthogonally adjacent. They are at a distance of one square (one movement point)....
I'd change "...Two squares touching at only one corner are diagonally adjacent. They are at a distance of two squares (movement points)...." > ...Two squares touching at only one corner are diagonally adjacent. They are at a distance of two squares (two movement points)....
I'd change "...A square is never considered adjacent to any other square that is part of a different room or corridor section except when two squares on opposite sides of a door or secret door touch. You cannot move through walls. Only through a door standing on top of a wall or through a secret door adjacent to it may you enter a room." > ...A room square is never considered adjacent to any other square that is part of a different room or a corridor section except when the two squares on opposite sides of a door or secret door touch. Figures cannot move through walls, but they may enter or exit a room through a door positioned on a wall or through a secret door adjacent to it.
Optionally, I'd simplify further "...A room square is never considered adjacent to any other square that is part of a different room or a corridor section except when the two squares on opposite sides of a door or secret door touch...." > Squares separated by a wall aren't considered adjacent.

The clause 'a square [some one, something] occupies/is occupying' is often stylized to '[some one, something]'. A figure figuratively speaking fills out all the surface of the square it is occupying and is thus congruent with it in meaning. For example, 'a square adjacent to you' means 'a square adjacent to the square you are occupying', thus taking into account all above rules for figures and squares, relations between squares, and gameplay.

I'd change "The clause 'a square [some one, something] occupies/is occupying' is often stylized to '[some one, something]'...." > The clause 'a square [some one/something] occupies' is often stylized to '[some one/something]'....
I'd change "...A figure figuratively speaking fills out all the surface of the square it is occupying and is thus congruent with it in meaning...." > ...A figure is considered to take up the entire area of the square it is occupying and is thus congruent with it in meaning....

Markers and Tokens, whose applications and effects you should look up in the legend titles for them, do not fill out a square. Figures can occupy squares containing markers.

I'd change "Markers and Tokens, whose applications and effects you should look up in the legend titles for them, do not fill out a square. Figures can occupy squares containing markers." > Figures can occupy squares containing Markers, which do not fill up squares. The applications and effects of Markers and Tokens are listed under their legend titles found within certain Quest booklets.

[knightkrawler]

Thanks again, D.
Yes, the larger figures/bases and squares are gonna be defined when the problem presents itself, namely in later quest books which will have rule (errata/overruling) sections just like the original HeroQuest quest books. Up to this point, I was able to put even my Ogres (though pretty tall) onto my usual 30 mm rounds (thanks to treebark and fancy basing). Bigger bases will be oval 35 x 60 mm, taking two squares with a nice definition of wheres and hows. These also do not influence my choice of 35 or 40 mm boards which it will boil down to. Most of my stuff is being accomodated to 40 mm modular.
The additional rules for bigger figures/bases will be written in such a technical way, that my sizes do not have to be accomodated. You'll still be able to play on the original board and with the original bases and with my rules applied.

Edits will be done today or tomorrow, mehopes.