Search for Treasure & Secret Doors

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Fair challenge, but I think I have done myself a disservice in the way that I presented my rule changes on this topic previously.

I'll assume in my response that anyone reading has decided to scrap the pit sharing "feature" and have combined search for traps and search for secret doors into a single search action (or have retained these options if you play the original version), if you haven't already then you probably should, and I'll also assume that you allow one search for treasure per room (in rooms only) and one search for secret doors and traps per room or passage.

My 9 statements, the "8 ifs", include some re-statements of rules that haven't changed which I included in the hope of making the presented ruleset more complete (and heading off some potential questions) but it appears that it may have just made it appear more complex. Statements (2), (3) and (9) are not changes but are original rules, (4) & (5) explain how to handle traps and secret doors as part of movement, (6) (7) & (8) explain how to handle traps and secret doors as part of the assumed movement that occurs within Search for Treasure.

So really I could (and perhaps should) have presented it like...

Scrap the existing "Search for Traps and Secret Doors" action(s) and replace them with the following:

When a hero steps onto a trap during movement (or opens a trapped door/chest/container) then they must roll to disarm or steps onto a square next to a secret door and handle as per the normal rules for finding a secret door.

Note: In the presence of monsters, a trap will be triggered automatically, and a secret door will not be found.

When a hero searches a room containing at least one trap or secret door then handle those first before a treasure card is drawn, where the room contains multiple traps and/or secret doors then handle each in turn starting with the closest.

Move the hero to the trapped square, then they must roll to disarm or, for secret doors, move the hero to the square next to the secret door and handle as per the normal rules for finding a secret door.

What is the main impact on this "trade-off"?

In a typical dungeon with about 10 rooms and 10 passages, there will be around 30 search opportunities, 10 searches for treasure and 20 searches for secret doors & traps, this change reduces the number of searches from 30 to 10 but retains the same outcomes with a considerable reduction in faffing about.

[Parzival]

This thread has finally explained to me what the whole “search for secret doors and treasure in a pit” rule probably came from. The new 2021 edition states that the pit itself might contain a Treasure or a Secret Door (obviously leading to a tunnel or a lower level). But as far as I know no quest in the official series ever contains either.
I finally now get that originally the rule meant you can still search a chamber for any Treasure or Secret Doors while in the pit— peering over the edge keenly, I guess?

Honestly, I can’t fathom why this is a rule. Why would you stay in a pit and search when you can move out and search?
And aside from Treasure, it never made sense to have a secret door in a pit as the game doesn’t do lower levels, unless you treat the secret door as an “instant move” secret passage (like in Clue) where you pop up across the board in a new location. (That concept does appear in at least one quest, but not as part of a pit trap.)
And if this feature does exist, why wouldn’t there be a rule for safely lowering a hero into a known pit so that he doesn’t take 1 damage when he simply wants to search the thing?

Odd rule. One can use it when creating one’s own original quests, but otherwise it seems pointless.

[MonsterMotor]

FWhen a hero steps onto a trap during movement (or opens a trapped door/chest/container) then they must roll to disarm or steps onto a square next to a secret door and handle as per the normal rules for finding a secret door.

Note: In the presence of monsters, a trap will be triggered automatically, and a secret door will not be found.

When a hero searches a room containing at least one trap or secret door then handle those first before a treasure card is drawn, where the room contains multiple traps and/or secret doors then handle each in turn starting with the closest.

Move the hero to the trapped square, then they must roll to disarm or, for secret doors, move the hero to the square next to the secret door and handle as per the normal rules for finding a secret door.

Ok, this is a short formulation of the rule but it does not convince me. Did you really test this thoroughly? There are at least a few more things required to worry about:

- You now have a mandatory disarm event: not all heroes who can search can also disarm traps. This requires an extra rule expansion or caveat. Apart from that, maybe they do not want to risk a failed disarm attempt if the trap can safely be avoided otherwise. I would certainly complain about this as a player.

- You also have a mandatory move (teleport) event now: thus, finding a trap may now put a hero in a disadvantageous position without intention. Or it can lead to very strange occurrences, where a hero can be shifted to the other end of a long corridor if the trap is far away. Maybe there is even another undetectable wandering monster trap or a special movement obstacle between the hero and the discovered trap. Maybe the hero is immobile at the time of his search?

- Also, unwanted treasure card draws may now be triggered by an otherwise riskless search action. For instance, if a hero with 1 body point left merely wants to search for a secret door to find the exit, he must now risk encountering a wandering monster or a hazard. Not a game-breaker but can be unpleasant.

There are likely more issues that this rule change can cause… What about traps that cannot be disarmed?

It’s a nice idea but I don’t think it can in the end come out as simple as the original rule if you consider all the consequences.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

- You now have a mandatory disarm event: not all heroes who can search can also disarm traps. This requires an extra rule expansion or caveat. Apart from that, maybe they do not want to risk a failed disarm attempt if the trap can safely be avoided otherwise. I would certainly complain about this as a player.

Correct, I neglected to explain how the disarm roll works

Disarm roll Roll the number of combat dice shown and succeed if you roll at least one
3 dice, 5 dice, 4 dice, 2 dice [Toolkit gives 2 extra die]

If a trap is located on a square that you can and do avoid stepping on, then there is no need to disarm it, as you didn't step on it.

- You also have a mandatory move (teleport) event now: thus, finding a trap may now put a hero in a disadvantageous position without intention. Or it can lead to very strange occurrences, where a hero can be shifted to the other end of a long corridor if the trap is far away. Maybe there is even another undetectable wandering monster trap or a special movement obstacle between the hero and the discovered trap. Maybe the hero is immobile at the time of his search?

As the "Search for Traps & Secret Doors" action no longer exists, and "Search for Treasure" can only take place in a room, I'm not sure how this can result in a hero being shifted to the other end of a corridor, long or short.

If a hero is immobile then he wouldn't be able to move onto the trapped square, neither would he be able to carry out a "Search for Treasure" under the standard rules as that assumes movement.

I'm not sure what you mean by an undetectable trap, stepping on a trapped square in my experience leads automatically to detection, but if you mean a trap that cannot be disarmed then, as traps are found in order of the closest first, an "undetectable" trap that is closer would be found first, and triggered as it cannot be disarmed.

- Also, unwanted treasure card draws may now be triggered by an otherwise riskless search action. For instance, if a hero with 1 body point left merely wants to search for a secret door to find the exit, he must now risk encountering a wandering monster or a hazard. Not a game-breaker but can be unpleasant.

Yes, searching a room, whatever it is that you hope to find would now come with a risk, the risk isn't conditional on what it is that you are looking for.

But then logically why would it? If I am distracted by my search of a room and fail to notice a monster wandering up, should I really be able to tell the monster that I was in fact searching, not for treasure, but specifically for secret doors, point out the shiny gold chalices behind the drapes that I left behind as I wasn't looking for treasure to prove the point, and ask if he would so kind as to depart and come back when I am searching for treasure...

I would also challenge how simple the original "search for secret doors & traps" rule if you consider all the consequences.

Picture the following set up, admittedly it is a little contrived to demonstrate the point.

Search.png

The Dwarf searches for traps as his action and…

(1) He moves 5 squares along the passage and discovers the Falling Block trap
(2) He then moves 4 squares further along the passage to discover the Pit trap
(3) He then moves 3 squares further along the passage to discover the Spear trap
(4) He then moves 12 squares back along the passage to return to his original position

Questions?

a) How does the Dwarf bypass the Falling Block trap to reach the Pit trap, without needing to jump or disarm, and without triggering, the Falling Block trap?
b) How does the Dwarf bypass the Pit trap to reach the Spear trap, without needing to jump or disarm, and without triggering the Pit trap?
c) How does the Dwarf move 24 squares in a single action in addition to his 2D6 movement, when moving whilst searching for traps is supposed to be a slow and cautious activity?
d) How does the Dwarf reach the Spear trap without revealing the Goblin?
e) Having somehow bypassed 3 traps, a monster and moved 12 squares, all with a single action, why would the Dwarf return to his starting position, just to have to face them all again?
f) If the Dwarf can move 24 squares, can bypass multiple traps without triggering them (twice), can move past monsters without being detected, all within a single action, then why is it impossible for him to find the Pit trap behind the open door in the square next to him?

[MonsterMotor]

Fair enough, I was assuming you were taking the old EU rules as base, which you often emphasize you do. There, treasure searches were explicitly allowed in corridors.

Let's leave it at this. I have basically understood how your mechanism is intended to work. And I have absolutely no idea what this dwarf example is all about. No questions there.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I do indeed still use the old 1989 rules, but whilst the original version of the game explicitly allows searches for treasure in both rooms and passages, the later "second edition" removes the passages part in most of the references to searching for treasure in rooms and passages, although there are a couple of references remaining untouched. Many, including myself, have taken that as an intention by those that produced that version that limit search for treasure to rooms only, rather than rooms and passages, although the implementation may have been poor!