Search for Treasure & Secret Doors

[Zeus]

I removed searching for traps entirely. Instead, when a hero steps on a square or opens a chest with a trap, they get to do an Mind test to see whether they spotted the trap, and if so, a fixed 5+ test to disarm it (Dwarf on 2+, hero with toolbox on 3+). Not spotting the trap or trying to disarm and fail triggers the trap of course. I later added an option to heroes that spotted a trap in time to not have to try and disarm, but they can either step back, ending their turn and leaving the trap for another hero to disarm or trigger, or make an Agility test to try and sneak past the trap (with failure triggering the trap).

The slightly more involved way to handle a trap is more than offset by not having to search for them all the time, plus it is not much fun to search for traps on almost every turn without finding one most of the time. Also, more options/decisions for the heroes make the game more interesting for them, and not at a high complexity cost I think.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Sorted, I think. Thanks for the inspiration

Summary of my search changes

1) Scrap the existing "Search for Traps and Secret Doors" action(s)

2) If as part of movement in the presence of monsters a hero moves onto a trapped square, or opens a trapped door or chest, the trap is triggered and their turn ending.

3) If as part of movement in the presence of monsters a hero moves onto a square next to a secret door, then do nothing.

4) If as part of movement in the absence of monsters a hero moves onto a trapped square, or opens a trapped door or chest, then allow them a roll to spot/detect and disarm the trap*, failure to spot/detect or failure to disarm results in the trap being triggered and their turn ending.

5) If as part of movement in the absence of monsters a hero moves onto a square next to a secret door, then the door is found, the hero can continue with their turn.

*You could roll separately for the spot/detect aspect and the disarm aspect but personally I just combine them into a single roll.

6) If a hero searches a room (for treasure) containing a trap then move the figure onto the trapped square and allow them a roll to spot/detect and disarm the trap*, failure to spot/detect or failure to disarm results in the trap being triggered and their turn ending. If the room contains more than one trap then move them to the nearest.

7) If a hero searches a room (for treasure) containing a secret door then move the figure onto the appropriate square and the door is found.

8) If the room contains multiple traps, secret doors or a combination of the two, then proceed with the nearest first.

9) If a hero searches a room (for treasure) and no hidden traps or secret doors remain, then the hero figure is not moved, and the hero player may draw a treasure card as usual (unless the EWP declares a special treasure from the Quest Notes).

[Farwatcher]

I reworked searching into three actions: Hunt for Treasure, Broad Search, and Narrow Search.

Hunting for Treasure is pretty much as written, except with a few gimmicks for furniture. (I think someone else came up with this first, but I say a room can only be searched once, plus once more for each piece of furniture in that room.)

A Broad Search reveals any traps and any secret doors within the hero's current room or corridor, and can only be done when there are no monsters in that room/corridor.

A Narrow Search only finds traps, but it reveals any traps on any squares adjacent to the hero -- including squares on the other side of an open door -- and can be done even if a monster is nearby (as long as no monster is adjacent to the hero).

[dragon5145]

It doesn't really make sense that searching for treasure is more likely to produce a wandering monster than other searches. An alternative wold be to take all of the wandering monsters out of the treasure deck and roll a combat dice with any search, a black skull triggers a wandering monster.

I don't know, in a way it does. In a way it does searching for traps or secret doors would almost always be slow and methodical, in order to avoid setting off traps or missing the hollow sound from lightly tapping on a wall or feeling for suspicious air drafts, very quite. While a search for treasure could similarly be more like ransacking a room, tossing books to the floor, emptying cupboards, flipping furniture, tearing throne cushions; all potentially much louder so increased chance of drawing unwanted attention.

I do like the idea of rolling a combat die for a chance to trigger a WM on searches other than treasure though, just not sure whether for both SD and traps or just one of them. I seem to remember someone on another post mentioning that in base GS the treasure deck has a ratio of about 1/3 good thing, 1/3 hazards, 1/3 WM so if well shuffled it already give about a 2/3 chance of something bad early on and only gets stronger later in a quest. A 1/6 chance may or may not be a little high since depending on the number of searches in a quest, in UK rules I would think more trap and SD searches occur since they can happen in corridors as well as rooms while only allowing treasure searches once and only in rooms depending on quest map layout. NA base rules allow for one treasure search per hero in rooms, making it difficult to estimate if rolling a single CD for non treasure searches results in too many WM without extensive playtesting. However the probabilities for these searches could easily be adjusted using different #'s of CD and what triggers a WM. Examples below format # dice, WM trigger, approximate chance

1 1/6
1 1/3
1 1/2
2 1/36
2 1/9
2 1/4
3 1/216
3 1/27
3 1/8

As can be seen by rolling for WM on non treasure searches the EWP can tailor the chance of a WM based on how tough or easy he wants to make a particular quest. This also solves the problem of quests with a particularly strong or multiple WM, as you could just use one of the options with lower possibilities. This systems offers another possible way to balance various homebrew hero advancement systems. While I wouldn't suggest it since it may upset the hero players, EWP could adjust the chance up down mid quest if they seem to be having too easy or hard of a time.
Another viscous use would be rolling in addition to drawing from treasure deck, possible treasure plus WM, hazard with WM or two WM on a single search. Zargon says, "The only good hero is a dead hero."

[Zenithfleet]

... in UK rules I would think more trap and SD searches occur since they can happen in corridors as well as rooms while only allowing treasure searches once and only in rooms depending on quest map layout.

Just want to point out that the UK (EU) rules for treasure searches are unclear. Some believe you can only search once per room, but to that I say, "Prove it!" I don't think there's any such restriction. A case can be made either way for the UK 2nd edition.

There's some exhaustive discussion here. By 'exhaustive' I mean exhausting to anyone who reads through it all...

You can definitely search passages as well as rooms for treasure in the EU game, though. Both the rules for wandering monsters and the rules for reclaiming a dead hero's equipment mention it. It's possible the designers tried to take that out in the 2nd edition, but if so they missed a few things.

This isn't directly relevant to making up new rules, but it can cause some confusion in discussions because some EU players think the official rule is one treasure search per room, while others don't. It's probably more important when making up new Quests for the EU game.

[Senserazer]

In my games traps and secret doors are searched for with the same action, to same time. None of them carry a risk, and are only relevant with no monsters on board.
I might be missing something though? I'm very new to HQ

[MonsterMotor]

Searching for traps and secret doors within the same action is the old European rule from the 90s. I still use it in my games, too.

[Parzival]

In my games traps and secret doors are searched for with the same action, to same time. None of them carry a risk, and are only relevant with no monsters on board.
I might be missing something though? I'm very new to HQ

Yeah, it really kind of just slows movement down, if the players use any tactical sense. (If they don’t they can find themselves in a situation where a newly revealed monster— as one just around the corner of a corridor— will be able to act and attack before every hero gets a chance to act against him.

Example: Barbarian steps around a corner in a corridor. He checks for traps, ending his turn and movement. No traps discovered, so the Dwarf moves down the corridor a bit and searches for secret doors. None found. The elf now comes traipsing around the corner, having rolled a 12, and trots down to the double corridor where— Holy Legolas!— a Mummy is lurking. Now the Elf and the Wizard must face the Abomination without assistance by the heavy hitters, afterwhich the Mummy (unlikely to be slain by them) gets its movement and attacks in before the Barbarian and Dwarf will be able to respond.
A smart party would of course delay everyone behind the B and D before moving down the corridor, and only move to peek around into the double corridor on the Barbarian’s turn.
And that’s all the bad that separating DT from DSD does. But the heroes kinda have to be a little dumb to do that.
Combining them is a workable solution to resolve that.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Searching for traps and secret doors within the same action is the old European rule from the 90s. I still use it in my games, too.

I do the same* and never understood why searching for traps and searching for secret doors were split into separate actions in the NA Remake, which seems to bring a few disadvantages and no real advantages, until recently when the penny finally dropped. The decision to allow searching within a pit trap, searching for treasure, searching for secret doors, but crucially NOT searching for traps (I have complained about allowing space sharing and searching in pits elsewhere in the forum so I won't repeat it here) forces splitting the search for secret doors and traps to be split into two separate actions, searching for secret doors that can be done in a pit and searching for traps which cannot be done in a pit. It seems a poor decision to me to force this change just so you can search for secret doors in a pit, which takes effect in very rare circumstances, but on pretty much every other turn in every game it slows things down (or encourages players not to bother searching for either traps or secret doors or both, not as a genuine tactical choice but just to avoid boredom that it brings!).

*If fact that is not strictly true anymore but it was for a good couple of decades, these days I do something a little more radical...

I posted the details of the method I currently use a few posts earlier on this very thread (click here if you can't be bothered to scroll up), but essentially I have never been able to get my head around the concept of searching for traps, because...

a) traps are clearly not visible under normal circumstances, we know this because they are not placed on the board when an area is revealed, and yet they somehow become visible when you perform a "search for traps" action even though these doesn't appear to be any movement involved in a "search for traps" action, so what makes the traps switch from being not visible to visible?

b) aside from when there are monsters within your area of the board and your attention is presumably focussed on them, when would you ever make a conscious decision to not look out for traps, when would you ever think that a particular room or passage looks sufficiently safe to waltz along it with your eyes closed?

c) "looking" is NOT considered an action and is an intrinsic part of movement, as presumably your eyes are involved in finding traps, and something becoming visible involves looking then why would looking for and finding traps be treated in any other way than NOT considering it an action and considering it an intrinsic part of movement.

So how do traps go from being not visible to being visible? Simple, Proximity. They are not visible at a distance in the gloom, but can be spotted when you are close enough to trigger them. Hence my suggested changes above which simplify and streamline the game by removing the search for secret doors and traps action(s) entirely and just leaving one single search action (the former search for treasure). Feel free to try it and let me know how you find it, personally I would never go back!

[MonsterMotor]

I still don't see why I should trade this one very clear and simple rule for a list of 8 "ifs." This looks like an unnecessary complication to me. My own HQ rules do contain a lot of changes, but I never saw a necessity to change the "search for traps and secret doors" rule. It fits so perfectly into the lean HQ ruleset and has always done its job as intended.

By the way, I also see the option to search within a pit a design flaw for various reasons and, therefore, scrapped it.