Action Dice Mechanism

[burglekutt]

Although on that last one I would prefer # is Barbarian = 4, Dwarf = 3, Elf = 2, Wizard = 1

If I'm understanding you right for strength related rolls:
Barb = 4CDice
Dwarf = 3CD
Elf = 2CD
Wizard = 1CD
They need one to succeed?

Looks like your system & mine suffer form the same problem.

Your Elf pushing open a Stone Door might not roll a for two or three turns. Likewise My Stone Door needs a certain # of 's rolled before the door is "opened" (cumulative).

Both of ours may require multiple turns before they're successful so I'm guessing like mine you allow up to two adjacent heroes to have their chance at a roll?

If the other heroes fail they're rolls too, do you mind it taking multiple turns? I don't think I have a problem with that since usually the Heros either have the time to do it, or they're under extreme pressure & decide to leave it to the Barb n Dwarf hoping for the best.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

If I'm understanding you right for strength related rolls:
Barb = 4CDice
Dwarf = 3CD
Elf = 2CD
Wizard = 1CD
They need one to succeed?

Your understanding is correct (and I have expanded this same mechanism of roll # combat dice / action dice and get a to succeed to other tests as well - spell break, jump, disarm and similar non-combat, non-damage rolls) but I don't agree that presents a problem.

Under the official rules for stone doors, the probability of success is as follows:

Barbarian = 0.5
Dwarf = 0.25
Elf = 0.25
Wizard = 0

Under my ruleset the probability of success in each case is higher, so any "problem" is reduced under my ruleset compared to the official version.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I've developed this "Combat Dice" as "Action Dice" idea further and outlined it below.

Note: Many different variants of official HQ rules exist, some statements or examples may not be correct in every version.

In HeroQuest, outside of combat and damage, there are several activities where the outcome is variable, they may or may not succeed, and a mechanism is needed to fulfil these.

• Base Game: Disarm Traps, Jump Pits, Break Spells,
• Expansions: Force Door (Stone Doors and Jammed Doors)
• Homebrew: Sneak, Open Lock, Lift Portcullis

Principles

To determine a “good” mechanism, some principles need to be established as to what good looks like.
• Simple – HQ’s simplicity is one of its strengths, so the mechanism needs to be able to be described in a single sentence
• Quick – needs to be fast to execute in play, no look up tables or similar, no need for Evil Wizard player to arbitrate (whilst the EWP acting as a rules arbitrator is an established principle in HQ, this should arise by exception, creating rules that require the EWP to arbitrate as part the rule is poor design and makes that role harder and increases the chances that only 1 player in each group can fulfil the role adequately and consistently)
• Consistent – needs to be consistent with other mechanism, components and characteristics that already exist in the game (no new mechanisms, components, or characteristics)
• Universal – needs to be one mechanism that can be applied to different activities and situations rather than a different mechanism for each situation
• Memorable – easy to remember (although if simple, consistent, and universal that probably takes care of this one automatically)
• Extensible – numerous factors can influence an outcome (see below), the mechanism needs to be sufficiently extensible to take these into account without resulting in an automatic pass or fail, otherwise that defeats the object of a mechanism for determining an outcome (and removes risk and therefore fun!)

Factors
• Permanent character based – Dwarf’s dexterity leading to an advantage is disarming traps, Barbarian’s powerful physique giving an advantage to damage and strength related activities, Elf’s agility giving an advantage to jumping, Wizard’s magic knowledge giving an advantage to breaking spells and so on.
• Semi-permanent equipment based – Granted by equipment for as long as you hold it; Toolkit – disarm trap bonus, Talisman of Lore – break spell bonus, Boots of Leaping – jump bonus etc
• Temporary – Potion of Strength giving a strength-based bonus, Potion of Dexterity giving a Jump related bonus.
• Situational – apply to a specific type in a single quest such as all traps are harder to spot/disarm in this quest or to a specific example of a particularly heavy door (stone doors) or a particularly complex lock

Original Mechanisms

Single Combat Die
Quite a few of these activities in the original game are handled through the mechanism of rolling a single combat die and determining the outcome based on the resulting face.
Usage (success percentage):
• Disarm Trap (Dwarf), Not a Black Shield (83%)
• Icy Ledge, Not a Black Shield (83%) - double test, failing the first leads to a repeat of the same test but with a fatal outcome (97%)
• Slippery Ice, Not a White Shield (67%)
• Jump a Pit, Not a Skull (50%)
• Disarm Trap (Toolkit), Not a Skull (50%)

There are also 2 other possibilities that I don’t think are utilised, but they could be
• Success = White Shield (33%)
• Success = Black Shield (17%)

Analysis: Whilst this mechanism satisfies the principles of being simple, quick, consistent it isn’t universal as other different mechanisms exist to solve similar problems and I would argue it isn’t memorable (if you watch beginners play you will hear questions like “do I need a skull to succeed or not a skull, is a white shield a success” and similar for longer than needs to be the case) . It also isn’t particularly extensible, throw in a few additional factors and this soon become an automatic success or failure or needs a rule lawyer. “If I’m attempting to jump a pit but it is 2 squares wide, and I’m wearing plate armour and boots of leaping and have just quaffed a potion of dexterity, what face do I need to roll or avoid rolling to be successful?”

Red Dice Pool

Roll several red dice and score at least one 6

Usage
Break Spell – roll as many red dice as you have (current) mind points and succeed if you roll at least one 6
Examples, sleep, command, fear*, cloud of chaos
*Cannot be broken at once, only on a future turn – is this an oversight?

Analysis: Whilst this mechanism satisfies the principles of being simple, quick & memorable, it arguably isn’t consistent partly because more dice are needed than supplied with the game (hardly an insurmountable problem), and partly because it uses movement dice rather than combat dice (unlike other mechanisms here).

2 Red Dice, Total <= Ability

From Warded Gate - KK – Quest 9 Note D

“Roll two red dice. Pass if the total number rolled is equal to or less than his current number of mind points”
The Dwarf needs to roll only 1 Red dice

Also, from KK – Quest 6 Note A

“Roll two red dice. Pass if the total number rolled is equal to or less than his starting number of body points”

Analysis: Whilst this mechanism satisfies the principles of being simple, quick & memorable, however it isn’t very extensible, you can roll one less die but not two less dice, equally when your current mind points are 1 then it becomes an automatic fail and of course it isn’t universal because different versions of the game and even different spells use different mechanisms to solve similar problems and arguably isn’t consistent partly because more dice are needed than supplied with the game (hardly an insurmountable problem), partly because it uses movement dice rather than combat dice (unlike other mechanisms here) and partly because they are not consistent even with each other, note the subtle difference in bold italics.

Combat Dice Pool

Roll several combat dice and score at least one/two/three skulls

Usage: ATOH Mind Lock brings us a different spell break test

Roll one combat dice for each Mind Point. If they manage to roll three or more skulls, they have broken the effects.

Analysis: This mechanism ticks most of the boxes except that it isn’t universal and isn’t particularly scalable in that anyone with Mind Points of 1 or 2 it would be an automatic failure.

The Action Dice Mechanism

You roll a number of combat dice and are successful if you score at least one

A quest creator may wish to make an exception in the Quest notes by, for example, ruling that all traps in this quest have been designed by someone very devious so need at least 2 black shields to be disarmed, a particular locked door may have a very intricate lock that needs at least 2 black shields to be opened, a pit may be wider than standard so need at least 2 black shields to be jumped successfully.

Alternatively the Quest notes may instruct that a roll is needed for an action that is usually automatic, such as opening a door, now needs with at least 1 black shield, for example, all indicated doors are made from heavy stone so need a roll of at least 1 black shield to open, or a particular door is stuck fast as it hasn’t been opened for a long time so needs a roll of at least 1 black shield to open.

Percentage chance of success by number of dice rolled: 1 (17%), 2 (31%), 3 (43%), 4 (53%), 5 (61%), 6 (67%), 7 (72%), 8 (77%), 9 (81%), 10 (84%)

Note that there is a law of diminishing returns is present here where each extra die rolled increases your odds, but by a decreasing amount. This is useful to note as it adds scalability, you could in theory roll 10 combat dice and never be guaranteed a success.

Action Dice

Roll the number of combat dice shown and succeed if you roll at least one

• Agility roll (used for dodging and jumping): 4 dice, 3 dice, 5 dice, 2 dice [Potion of Dexterity gives an extra die, Rabbit Boots give an extra die]
• Disarm roll (used for disarming found traps and potentially picking locks): 3 dice, 5 dice, 4 dice, 2 dice [Toolkit gives 2 extra die]
• Strength roll (used for opening jammed / stone doors): 5 dice, 4 dice, 3 dice, 2 dice [Potion of Strength gives 2 extra dice]
• Mind roll (used for spell breaks): use 1 die per starting Mind Point / Mind value

Apply to anything else that takes your fancy... lifting a portcullis, climbing a rope, resisting a poison, balancing on a bridge, sneaking past enemies, traversing a ledge, dodging enemies etc.

Analysis: Ticks all my boxes

[BlackJax]

I find this thread very interesting even though I’ve never played Mice and Mystics, because whilst we were a board gaming family back in the day we mostly stuck to the *yawn* family favourites like Monopoly, Scrabble and Cluedo (actually we did play Escape from Colditz which I remember fondly) until my uncle moved to America and used to return every Christmas bearing gifts, peanut butter, jelly beans (I swear he thought such things didn’t exist in the UK!) and far more cool exciting new board games, some of which like the Ghost Busters RPG and Buffy the Vampire Slayer became firm family favourites.

Xmas 2000 (I think) brought the Hercules & Xena RPG, which we played a few times over the Xmas period but it didn’t really become a regular event (partly as our family board game events became less frequent, partly because unlike Ghost Busters, I was the only family member who watched Xena) but I did play it a few times with my friends and whilst it never really took off with us either and certainly never replaced HeroQuest, it did have a real impact on how we played HQ.

For those not familiar with the Hercules & Xena RPG (which I’m guessing is probably most people) the bit this is relevant is the central “mechanism”.

The characters have attributes & skills which determine the number of dice rolled for a certain test, each dice has faces representing either a success or a failure, in standard tests you need to roll enough successes to reach the target number to pass that test, in opposed tests or contests you need to get more successes than your opponent.

For example:

Standard: You might roll 4 dice to jump an obstacle scoring 2 successes, jumping an obstacle needs at least 2 successes so you have passed.

Opposed: You might roll 5 dice to attack in combat scoring 3 successes and your opponent rolls 4 dice to attack scoring 2 success, you score one more success so you win.

This core mechanism with its two variants covered all scenarios, which meant it was easy to pick up, soon became familiar, was expandable and so on.

Having experienced this and then returning to HQ immediately made us question the equivalent mechanism in HQ, the opposed roll mechanism in Xena was pretty much the same as the HQ combat mechanism (including cool dice) but for the standard rolls in HQ (outside of combat) no such variant of the common mechanism existed.

For Example:

In HQ when you want to jump a pit, every character rolls a single combat die and succeeds on a roll of a to convert the Xena mechanism to HQ, would have replaced this with…

Characters would have a relevant attribute (let’s call it Move) that would determine the number of dice rolled, say 3 for example, and you would need to score at least 2 successes to pass the Move test.

Same 50% chance of success with either mechanism but the Xena version seemed to have a lot of advantages…in that it was common to the combat system (so easier to pick up), it was easily extendable (add an extra die for kit that gave a bonus, a longer pit would mean you needed 3 successes instead of 2), and it allowed for better variety between characters, the Elf would maybe be better at jumping than the Dwarf with his stubby legs so 3 dice for the Dwarf but 5 dice for the Elf.

So we started to ask ourselves why didn’t HQ use this common mechanism across the board and more importantly how would you implement this and would it make for a better game and so we did and it turns out it does!

[crystlshake]

I think the best point to start for an alternate or universal resolution system is by converting existing mechanics into that format starting with the most prevalent first. For example, there are some tests that use the red dice, such as spell resistance, where the combat die could work just as well. Such as rolling a 6 being the same as rolling a black shield (1 in 6 chance per die).

Whatever the die rolling type, I think many tests should take the character's base or overall stats (influenced by equipment) into account if their character type or perceived ability should have an influence in the result. I also think that where possible there should be consistency for resolution methods. Such as for when rolling to resist or protect from a trap, any shield vs any skull is easier to associate with preventing damage in the 50/50 chance, but maybe takes a bit more space. Where possible, any bonuses to the chances to succeed should be informed by stats before addendums or addons. This simplifies adjustment for the mechanic where you don't have to write up something for every class. This is generally shown in the tests where the dice pool is influenced by the base character stat. Due to the arrangement of the CD it is possible to get anywhere from 1:6 to 5:6 chance of success based on the symbols that are the targets. Annotation in this way also makes the rule applicable on either type of 6 sided die and in a very small footprint. More care may have to be taken when listing the number of die to use though. Non binary pass/fail where each face gives a different outcome and those where the numbers or math matter more would still need to be expounded on as is currently done. Upon reflection defining the face needed might be required despite a more universal system as the 50/50 especially needs clarification on which one you are aiming for.

[Malcadon]

I always like the idea of running HQ like an open-ended RPG than as a structured board game.

I find that Dragonstrike's system for Feats (of Strength & Dexterity) and Questioning Monsters are a good basis for what could be a highly simplified version of D&D (ideally Basic/Expert due to its light nature). While Dragonstrike makes use of the d8, d10 and d12 for attacks, searches and feats, I always felt that for HQ Combat Dice could be key.

Rolling a single Black Shield for success makes sense if you have a sizable pool of dice. Your odds with one die is vary low (17%), with two still fairly difficult (31%). At around 50%/50% chance, three and four are the sweet-spot (42% and 58% respectively). Rolling White Shields or Skulls for success work best when using a system where you can succeeded by degrees (think Vampire: The Masquerade).

I would rather use a secondary Hero Card for role-playing stats (ability checks, saves, and the like) to keep the numbers even among the Heroes as using the Barbarian's Body Points for Feats of Strength rolls would make things way too easy for that Hero. I can see where the heroes would have between 1 to 3 points in each ability (Strength, Dexterity and the like), but to improve the heroes' situation,they can do things through role-play to add dice here and there. But that is beyond the scope of this topic. (Although, I do want to expand upon this, but I might make it its own topic...)