Rethinking Hero Death: alternate rules for defeat and dying

[Farwatcher]

(Hear me out, because this houserule is changing one of the most basic elements of the game.)

One of the biggest issues I’ve faced across multiple groups has been when a hero gets killed early and that hero’s player has nothing to do for the rest of the quest. After trying a few variations (respawning at the starting point, bringing in a different hero, sharing control of one of the remaining heroes), I’ve started using what feels like a good, simple solution:

Heroes don’t die at 0 Body Points.

Instead, a hero that reaches 0 Body Points OR 0 Mind Points goes into shock. While in shock, the hero rolls only 1 red die to move, 1 combat die when attacking, and 2 combat dice when defending.

While in shock, if a hero takes damage that would reduce their Body Points or Mind Points below zero, the hero is instead knocked prone. A prone hero:
-can be moved through by monsters
-does not block line of sight
-rolls 1 less combat die when attacking or defending (minimum of 1)
-rolls 1 less movement die on his next turn (minimum of 1), then automatically stands up.

If every hero on the board is in shock at the start of Zargon’s turn, the quest ends. Heroes who reached the exit and escaped receive their rewards; heroes who are still on the board and in shock are defeated. A defeated hero misses out on their share of the quest reward, and suffers a further penalty (I make defeated heroes lose half their gold and one possession of their choice, but you could also rule that any defeated heroes are killed outright, losing all their stuff).

I’ve found this change makes the heroes work together more, make more strategic decisions about when to run for the exit, and be less reluctant to take on dangerous foes – plus, it keeps all five players around the table until the end of the quest.

If you try using this rule in your game, or if you're using another house rule for heroic deaths, let me know how it plays for your group!

-FW

[Kurgan]

Here's how one of our Zargons at GenCon (JR of Baldman games) handled it. Going off of memory here but InSpectreRetro can correct me cause he was there too...

Hero goes to zero body points? Boom, he's dead, period. Knock over the mini and his body lies there with all his stuff.

Any other hero can walk over to him adjacent and (I think when the other monsters in the room are defeated or maybe just anytime) use a healing potion or spell on the downed hero to revive him instantly. It reminds me a bit of those "revives" you get to do in console FPS games that have been popular in past decade and a half for your teammates.

His treasure system was on searches you'd roll a d6, on a 1-2 you'd find a random equipment card, on a 3-4 you'd find a treasure card and on a 5-6 a random artifact.

If there was a specific treasure he'd award it to the first searcher.

Sometimes he'd require searching specific furniture, sometimes he didn't.

Sometimes after awarding 1 or 2 things in a room he'd say there was nothing else.

He removed the damage done by pit traps, but if a 2nd hero fell in, onto another hero, they'd both take damage. He also allowed players to spend movement to climb down and climb back up instead of jumping after they'd been revealed. Sometimes he could make climbing out require 1 additional movement point.

He used a 'hard corners' rule that prevented diagonal attacking around walls and through doorways.

For wandering monsters he would use whatever monster he wanted and make it make sense to where the heroes were in that moment.

In our game he allowed casters to use a 'rest action's to recover all of their spells after every spell had been used. ...

He allowed non-wizard characters to attack diagonally regardless of their weapon. He also allowed moving diagonally.

Just reminiscing and loving the fact that they felt free to allow people demoing their game to use homebrew rules.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Heroes don’t die at 0 Body Points.

Instead, a hero that reaches 0 Body Points OR 0 Mind Points goes into shock. While in shock, the hero rolls only 1 red die to move, 1 combat die when attacking, and 2 combat dice when defending.

While in shock, if a hero takes damage that would reduce their Body Points or Mind Points below zero, the hero is instead knocked prone. A prone hero:
-can be moved through by monsters
-does not block line of sight
-rolls 1 less combat die when attacking or defending (minimum of 1)
-rolls 1 less movement die on his next turn (minimum of 1), then automatically stands up.

Personally the threat of hero (perma-)death is a, probably the, key aspect that keeps the game exciting, avoiding death whilst still achieving the objective is kind of what the game is about so I wouldn't be introducing this rule.

That said, reading your post, I noticed that a hero reduced to 0 BP would allow roll 1 die for movement, attack and 2 dice for defence (generally regarded as the minimum dice for heroes in the existing rules), if they are subsequently injured, aside from being knocked prone, they can then get up and their dice are "reduced" by 1 again to the same minimum stats that they were already on.

So effectively once you have been reduced to your minimum stats you become an invulnerable "zombie" for the remaining of the quest, movement is slow and drags on, combat takes forever (and has no risk), with the EWP only chance of winning being a TPK (or at least reducing all heroes to this invulnerable state). I can't see playing potentially a significant part of a quest in this state would be anymore satisfying that just sitting it out to be honest, personally I think my players in this state would just contact Dignitas...

To resolve the issue of a player having to sit around for a large chunk of the quest because they died early, just drop in a new room with a prisoner hero, that the others can rescue and bring the player back in that way.

[Vorimir]

I liked the japanese rules about it. A dead/defeated Hero can be resurrected atfer the quest ends paying 500 gold coins. Is like buying a Elixir of life just for dead heroes. Because I use a levelijg system where heroes can get up to three or four skills they prefer to pay and go on with the same character. Only if all heroes die or they run out of money they can be healed that way

[Kurgan]

Yeah in the Japanese edition it would seem possible that you could lose a hero from the party for good? Unless he is replaced by another hero with a different name (I would have to study the translation again). Once the Talisman of Lore is found, you can keep bringing back heroes...

[dreicunan]

Since I'm playing with young kids I took instant perma-death out of the game. Instead, going to 0 body points means that you are on the ground, unconscious and unable to react. Another Hero can use a spell or potion to heal you (and I find that more "realistic" in a world with magic anyway) on their turn.

(If I were playing with older players, I might have them on a clock after going down - you can only survive a number of turns equal to your original starting body points before expiring, so 4 more turns for the Wizard, for example - to add some tension and up the stakes.)

As it is, if at any point all heroes have 0 body points at the end of Zargon's turn (since there is no mechanic to bring back someone via item or artefact on the next turn automatically that I am aware of), all 0-point heroes are captured by the forces of evil. The next quest will be some kind of jailbreak quest (details TBD depending on if all heroes were at 0 or if some had escaped). For THAT quest, anyone who doesn't make it out would be lost for good (but probably would be returning as a villain, perhaps one they could redeem, in a later quest).

[Farwatcher]

Dreicunan -- I like your idea of putting 0-BP heroes on a clock, and I'm going to experiment with it. I'm also running the game for younger kids who lose focus easily if their character is killed or knocked out, hence the "still able to participate while in shock" mechanic. How do you generate your jailbreak quests? Are they smaller/faster than regular quests?

A couple clarifications on my undying mechanic:
*Heroes in shock (0-BP or 0-MP) can be brought out of shock by other heroes' healing spells/potions, so as long as the group is playing cooperatively, near-death heroes won't be shuffling around for long (if the group is out of healing resources, they're usually close to a TPK already).
*Heroes that get knocked prone no longer block monster movement or line of sight, and monsters can share the square of a prone hero, so a hero in shock can't be used as a roadblock (same rule that applies to a hero in a pit trap).

[dreicunan]

I have so much DMing experience from back in the day that I could do a jailbreak on the fly just basing it on the previous quest or a recurring nemesis and grabbing a map to alter a bit. I haven't needed to do one yet for this run, however.

If someone got away and could get help, I might make it quicker, such as an "ambush a convoy" style quest with some mercenaries along to help out. Or if plausible, I might incorporate the jailbreak with the next quest.

If Sir Ragnar is still an ally the first time it happens it could be a good time to have him pay back the favor to the party.

That said, my kids are *really* quick about reviving downed heroes (so far the longest anyone has been down has been 1 turn), so I don't know if I'll even get a chance to use these ideas anytime soon (maybe once they start facing yeti and polar bears).