Bows & Crossbows question

[burglekutt]

I sorta don't like the idea of being able to trade out a Crossbow for a Shield at all never mind pulling a Sword out with it, imagine how that would look in real life! Lol

If I had to allow it I wouldn't think you'd be able to attack at ALL, but I'd probably give him the Shield to defend with.

I don't like messing with Hero's movement so I'm forced to use this style of penalty:
Crossbow to melee: Only 1AttDie.
Bow to melee: Half Att round up.
Melee to melee: -1Att.

I consider my Crossbows almost to OP so I'm tempted to hurt my players more for using them.
Do these weapons deserve such a penalty or should I go lighter?
Short Bow: 1Att ×2 shots.
Long Bow: 2Att.
LightCrossbow: 1Skull(auto hit)×2 shots.
Heavy Crossbow: 3Att.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I sorta don't like the idea of being able to trade out a Crossbow for a Shield at all never mind pulling a Sword out with it, imagine how that would look in real life! Lol

If I had to allow it I wouldn't think you'd be able to attack at ALL, but I'd probably give him the Shield to defend with.

I don't like messing with Hero's movement so I'm forced to use this style of penalty:
Crossbow to melee: Only 1AttDie.
Bow to melee: -2Att round up.
Melee to anything: -1Att.

I consider my Crossbows almost to OP so I'm tempted to hurt my players more for using them.
Do these weapons deserve such a penalty or should I go lighter?
Short Bow: 1Att ×2 shots.
Long Bow: 2Att.
LightCrossbow: 1Skull(auto hit)×2 shots.
Heavy Crossbow: 3Att.

I think for me, there are two distinct mechanisms at play here and we are potentially muddying the waters by combining the two

1) Switching Weapons - at various points in a quest a hero could be using a Battle axe, or could be using a Crossbow, or could be using a Longsword and Shield combination, the mechanism governing switching between these different weapon configurations aka "Switching Weapons" and is covered on the Carrying and changing equipment during a quest topic...and there is a solution that has been proposed but not 100% agreed (yet) that doesn't require any such penalties.

2) Whether the Crossbow and Shield can be used "at the same time", this isn't about switching between weapons this is around restrictions on using certain weapon combinations, a shortsword and shield is fine, a battle axe and shield is not, a crossbow and shield...discussion is under the Crossbow--2 handed or can use a shield? topic, but again no penalties, weapon combinations will either be allowed or not allowed, the eternal debate is which of those categories the crossbow and shield combination fits in

Also I would be cautious around including such weapons as a "Heavy Crossbow", these strike me as more battlefield than confined spaces of a dungeon type weapons, the advantages of such weapons (ability to penetrate armour at 200 paces) would be irrelevant in a dungeon and the disadvantages (long reload time, slow to equip and unequip, cumbersome to carry) would make them practically useless, so personally I wouldn't include those options at all, in the same way that if someone asked me how best to handle rules for using an 18 foot pike in the dungeon, or a knight in full battle gear, including a lance and barded warhorse, my answer would be simply "don't" (or if I was attempting a little humour then I would add "I wouldn't touch that with an 18-foot pole")

[burglekutt]

Also I would be cautious around including such weapons as a "Heavy Crossbow",

I'll switch the name to just Crossbow since it's the same as in the game anyway.
The main reason you need a "Light Crossbow" is for a Hobbit player who shouldn't be stuck with just a ShortBow for missile attacks. He should be able to sling one artillery type weapon over his back that can do a bit more damage assuming some gamers may think the Crossbow is to big for the Hobbit.
LONGBOW:
We could call it something different because I do agree it would suck in a dungeon, but again it allows bigger sized Hero's to do more damage.

My take on weapon combinations:
Shield & ANYTHING but the Spear or one handed weapons is a NO.
It's one of the few "tacticle" decisions that should weigh on a players mind whether they want the extra Att or extra Def this fight.

18ft Pike lol.

As for penalties for switching weapons:
We all might never agree on this one sadly. The pros & cons of having them or not should be talked about & maybe somewhere in the middle is what we want.

The worst penalty I ever heard of is you "miss your next" turn completely while reloading & if you're attacked, you're stuck with whatever Defense you had during the attack.

The least penalty would ofcourse be that the switch is "instantaneous" at the end of your turn.
The first one sucks to high hell by slowing the game & boring your players.
The second speeds the game up but requires no tactics.
If a room is filled with Fimirs & CWarriors with no furniture in the way, we all need to bring out our Battle Axes!
If the rooms got a bunch of goblins & furniture everywhere, why not back myself behind a chair with a Crossbow & let the Barbarian hold em all back with his Shield & LongSword.

But the players won't know which is which till they open that door & it should give them some anxiety when they realize what they have equipped.

Penalties are an absolute must in this game & players should suffer for treating each encounter the same.

The penalties I put on my weapon switching has to be up there next to the "missing a turn" penalty & I sorta don't like that, but haven't play tested yet, but others here on the Forum are way to close to the "instantaneous" switch for me.

I'll always keep an ear out though.

[burglekutt]

Generally speaking, Xbows (and Throwing) are a lot better early on because of the +accuracy they have.
drift hunters

would love for you to elaborate on this. How do your Bows or throwing weapons have better accuracy?

[Vorimir]

I use a houseruled bow:
Attack 2. You can split your attack dices between 2 attacks. So you can make two 1 dice attacks or if you are under the Courage spell you can make two attacks with 2 dices or ine with 3 and another with 1.

But my players still preffer the crossbow.

[burglekutt]

But my players still preffer the crossbow.

Yeah its a tough call.
Since the Crossbow has a 3Attack, why would you want a weaker missile weapon unless it was faster(two or more attacks).
I think originally ppl liked the idea of a Bow 2Att x two shots which makes sense for weak enemies. Or 2Att & 1Att separate shots.

Also I would be cautious around including such weapons as a "Heavy Crossbow"

By me adding in a Long Bow & Light Crossbow I'm sorta complicating things unless I had the Short Bow do 1Att x three shots, but I think that might just slow things down.

I'm probably just gonna go Bow: 2Att x two shots. I wonder if others have had luck with it being useful against low Defense enemies? & worth the trade off of the Crossbow 3Att?

When it comes to missile weapons it is nice when one of them (the Crossbow) does damage to strong enemies while a lighter missile weapon for weaker enemies. It does seem to be the eternal battle for thought:)

[Bareheaded Warrior]

burglekutt,

I refer you back to my earlier post detailing my 3 missile weapons: Shortbow 2AD, Crossbow 3AD, Repeater Crossbow 2AD x2 attacks, which covers weaker, cheaper weapon, more expensive, more powerful weapon, more expensive less powerful but multi-shot weapon, in just 3 cards.

How about we only care about keeping track of switching if they're switching to/from the Shield/Battleaxe/Staff, and if there are ice gremlins in the quest... ?

If you make the "tracking of switching" simple, then it becomes easier to track it consistently throughout than it is to remember when you need to track it and when you don't.

I use the simple guideline that stowed equipment, as opposed to in-hand, the cards are placed in a stack face down in front of the player, and when they switch, using the rule below, "I'm attacking the Orc with my Battle Axe" the relevant card or cards, the Battle Axe is turned face up next to the player, and what they were holding, the Shortsword and Shield, are returned face down to the stack. That way there is never any issue around working out what defend dice you need to use to defend with based on the weapon you attacked with, as if you attacked with the Battle Axe, then you'll have any armour cards face up in front of you, telling you your defend dice, if you have the armour, shortsword and shield face up in front of you then that tells you your defend dice.

Obviously as you don't use the 1:1 limit on Cards as Equipment principle then you can't use this simple mechanism, but there it is for anyone else who does!

You select your weapon as an integral part of your attack action, that is you attack a specific character with a specific weapon which includes equipping yourself with that weapon. You cannot change weapons outside of that.

[Kurgan]

The Equipment card thing is a neat idea, and would work well with an in-person game at the table (I have no problem printing extra cards if it's needed). The way it works now is people tell me it's stowed (put parenthesis around it on character sheet), and if they forget when the next turn comes around they that's their problem, not mine.

In our virtual games we'd have to come up with some other gimmick, like an expandable virtual character sheet or something. A 'companion website' you could view that updated in realtime? A few people are working on various systems for that but we'll see what they come up with... that's the side challenge for playing remotely (and not everyone has their own set and own camera setup to point at what they have).