Legacy of Sorasil quest pack?

[HispaZargon]

I am not so sure this was meant to be the next level in Heroquest. Given that this game came near the end of the HQ era and MB and GW were already at odds, and having played it through to the end I think this was meant to be MB trying to make it's own end to the HQ canon.

Here's evidence of this:
1. the game lacks almost any GW specific creatures (fimirs, most chaos creatures etc).
2. The game introduces very DND creatures (dark elves, beholders, ilithids etc).
3. The levels are introduced by someone acting just like Mentor...however, once you beat the game and have all the equipment he reequips himself with it and is revealed to be Sorasil. I think MB was trying to make this character Mentor from the start, but they were avoiding using the name.
4. I think MB was intending the bad guy, Venthrax, to literally be the bad guy to end all bad guys. When you beat the game they do a sort of conclusion that feels like it's meant to be final.
5. The golem looks similar to the giant from Dragon Strike. Even though HQ already has gargoyles, these ones look like Dragon Strike gargoyles.

I think they intentionally were merging the two properties. MB made this game to say "Hey, now you're done with HQ, didn't you like those beholders? You should try out DND."

Yeah, I don't know about the D&D rights but I have a similar feeling about GW rights, today I just talked with Anderas about it... the videogame also avoids everywhere to mention the word "Chaos" by means of euphemisms like "dark", "corruption" and so on...

Moreover, the videogame's box and manual loosely mention Games Workshop in their copyrights... they only say in the cover (not inside the manual) that HeroQuest is of their property but that's all. Seeing that, I am not sure if Gremlin had all the rights from GW... maybe they were only allowed to use the name of HeroQuest but nothing about monsters.

According to this, I think the fanmade questpack should include some "de-make", especially with some monsters, in line what Pancho suggested some posts before. Monsters like orcs, goblins and fimirs are part of HeroQuest lore and unfortunately they do not appear anywhere, so maybe they would have their space there.

[cornixt]

MB didn't own D&D at the time (technically not at all, even though now they are all owned by Hasbro) so they weren't going to be making anything from convincing people to start playing the game. They didn't even have the license for the video games. They were probably just trying to appeal to D&D fans.

[RealCato]

Hi all,

I am part of the group designing this expansion.

Questions about the game
I have played through the game over the holidays, so can answer any questions as to that.
I have created about 10 save games per Quest and many notes, so I should be able to quickly go to a location to check things out and screenshot them.
I also found a few items previously uncatalogued (most notably the Talisman of Lore, but mostly gold). I will add these to the maps.

Treasure cards Quest #1
So far I have created prototypes for the Treasure cards for Quest 1.
I have tried to take into account as much as possible the suggestions done in this thread.
The healing classes (Paladin, Cleric) are new to HQ, but do not get much love in the Amiga game, so I'm trying to create some special artifacts for them. The first being the 'Ring of Wonders', the effect of which cannot be determined from the game file (unless someone can help me rip the assets from the ROM). 'Wonders' seem to be mostly related to religion, so I figured it could enhance healing magic. Suggestions are greatly appreciated on the item stats!

Exported files are shared here (not final versions):
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

The Artwork is mostly taken from older expansions, such as Elf Quest Pack, or YeoldeInn gallery (reusing the great work of Goblin-King a.o.).
Where Ye Olde Inn artwork didn't do, I just took a screenshot of the Amiga game as placeholder.
I will work with the Sorasil task force to see if we can source Art for these cards.

Also, the Amiga game reuses art for all non-unique items, such as gauntlets, helmets, scrolls etc.). We may want to change that as well.

[HispaZargon]

I guess both classic artifacts Spirit Blade and Talisman of Lore can be found in Oracle Stone's level, aren't they? That's one of the 3 second levels of Legacy of Sorasil, so it has sense to give the heroes the opportunity to find them at the beginning of the questpack if they don't already have them from previous games or they had lost them.

[RealCato]

I gues both classic artifacts Spirit Blade and Talisman of Lore can be found in Oracle Stone's level, aren't they? That's one of the 3 second levels of Legacy of Sorasil, so it has sense to give the heroes the opportunity to find them at the beginning of the questpack if they don't already have them from previous games or they had lost them.

Yes they are both found in the Oracle Stone's level.

In the videogame you find a Spirit Blade, but in your inventory it turns into a Greatsword. I like the idea of keeping it a Spirit Blade, because that one has actually been published (in Japan) so we know its stats.

The Talisman of Lore is referred to in the prologue, as one of the quest items needed to restore the lands from Evil. In the videogame however it doesn't do anything but take up inventory space.
Not only is the Talisman not critical to the storyline of the videogame (you can advance to the next quest without it), it can even be sold for 150-170G in between quests, further signalling that the designers did not have another use in mind for this artifact. I would personally like to repurpose it as an artifact that benefits Healers, to give the Paladin and Cleric some love. Maybe even use the also Japanese "Talisman of Life"effect (Resurrect the entire party once per Quest) but allow it to be worn only by spellcasters that use Healing magic. But up to the community to decide...

In terms of power level of these items:
I think Sorasil should be in between WoM and the quest packs in terms of Power Level. Items can be a bit more abundant and more powerful.
Sorasil introduces 4 new Hero types that also need to be equipped with powerful artifacts to battle the powerful bad guys introduced in the videogame (Beholders, Dark Elf Assassin's, Mindflayers etc).

https://ibb.co/hMd7brQ
https://ibb.co/XJn6SC8

[HispaZargon]

The Talisman of Lore is referred to in the prologue, as one of the quest items needed to restore the lands from Evil. In the videogame however it doesn't do anything but take up inventory space.

This is what the Prologue says about it in the videogame's manual:

(...)
Beyond the Shadow Mountains far from here, lies the land of Kolchoth. Once a mighty empire of sultans and demi-gods, Kolchoth now lies a decadent ruin that remembers little of its former glory. Go to Kolchoth and locate the two talismans of lore which will aid us in our hour of need. Thence, look to the East, where the rising sun illuminates the lands of Garathor wherein lies the last healing Amulet of Tambor-Rin. Turn Southwards accross the plains and beyond. To where the moon casts its shadow, to the begotten land of the Elves, The Iron-Wood Forest for there, legend proclaims, lies the Oracle Stone.

With these artifacts I shall heal the land before evil overruns us and darkness reigns all powerful.
(...)

Correct me if I am wrong but the prologue seems quite confusing since it talks about two talismans of lore but we have only found one of them, so could does not exist a second in the videogame... maybe it is a misunderstanding of the prologue and it is really considering as a kind of talisman of lore both the Amulet of Tambor-Rin and the Oracle Stone... I think this interpretation of the prologue could be correct because the Talisman of Lore is found in the same place as the Oracle Stone, which leads to think that has no sense to talk about going to the South to search the Oracle Stone if you have already found the two talismans of lore... Moreover, the prologue does not write "talisman of lore" in Capital letters as the other items, as if it was just a kind of amulet and that's all. I hope I am explaining well.

In the videogame you find a Spirit Blade, but in your inventory it turns into a Greatsword. I like the idea of keeping it a Spirit Blade, because that one has actually been published (in Japan) so we know its stats.

Not only is the Talisman not critical to the storyline of the videogame (you can advance to the next quest without it), it can even be sold for 150-170G in between quests, further signalling that the designers did not have another use in mind for this artifact. I would personally like to repurpose it as an artifact that benefits Healers, to give the Paladin and Cleric some love. Maybe even use the also Japanese "Talisman of Life"effect (Resurrect the entire party once per Quest) but allow it to be worn only by spellcasters that use Healing magic. But up to the community to decide...

Well... since those two artifacts are named as the classic ones and they are not a relevant part of Legend of Sorasil storyline, I would leave them with the same rules as the originals. I would allow the heroes party to find them only if nobody has any of them. Similar rule as Stephen Baker did with Spirit Blade, Orc's Bane and Borin's Armour at the begining of Return of the Witch Lord questpack. Creating new rules for these two artifacts or changing their name I think will only add more noise... Legacy of Sorasil already has so many other new artifacts, I think there is no need to add more.

[j_dean80]

I don’t think it refers to an item named Talisman of Lore. I think it refers to 2 talisman’s talked about in lore.

[RealCato]

The Talisman of Lore is referred to in the prologue, as one of the quest items needed to restore the lands from Evil. In the videogame however it doesn't do anything but take up inventory space.

This is what the Prologue says about it in the videogame's manual:

(...)
Beyond the Shadow Mountains far from here, lies the land of Kolchoth. Once a mighty empire of sultans and demi-gods, Kolchoth now lies a decadent ruin that remembers little of its former glory. Go to Kolchoth and locate the two talismans of lore which will aid us in our hour of need. Thence, look to the East, where the rising sun illuminates the lands of Garathor wherein lies the last healing Amulet of Tambor-Rin. Turn Southwards accross the plains and beyond. To where the moon casts its shadow, to the begotten land of the Elves, The Iron-Wood Forest for there, legend proclaims, lies the Oracle Stone.

With these artifacts I shall heal the land before evil overruns us and darkness reigns all powerful.
(...)

Correct me if I am wrong but the prologue seems quite confusing since it talks about two talismans of lore but we have only found one of them, so could does not exist a second in the videogame... maybe it is a misunderstanding of the prologue and it is really considering as a kind of talisman of lore both the Amulet of Tambor-Rin and the Oracle Stone... I think this interpretation of the prologue could be correct because the Talisman of Lore is found in the same place as the Oracle Stone, which leads to think that has no sense to talk about going to the South to search the Oracle Stone if you have already found the two talismans of lore... Moreover, the prologue does not write "talisman of lore" in Capital letters as the other items, as if it was just a kind of amulet and that's all. I hope I am explaining well.

In the videogame you find a Spirit Blade, but in your inventory it turns into a Greatsword. I like the idea of keeping it a Spirit Blade, because that one has actually been published (in Japan) so we know its stats.

Not only is the Talisman not critical to the storyline of the videogame (you can advance to the next quest without it), it can even be sold for 150-170G in between quests, further signalling that the designers did not have another use in mind for this artifact. I would personally like to repurpose it as an artifact that benefits Healers, to give the Paladin and Cleric some love. Maybe even use the also Japanese "Talisman of Life"effect (Resurrect the entire party once per Quest) but allow it to be worn only by spellcasters that use Healing magic. But up to the community to decide...

Well... since those two artifacts are named as the classic ones and they are not a relevant part of Legend of Sorasil storyline, I would leave them with the same rules as the originals. I would allow the heroes party to find them only if nobody has any of them. Similar rule as Stephen Baker did with Spirit Blade, Orc's Bane and Borin's Armour at the begining of Return of the Witch Lord questpack. Creating new rules for these two artifacts or changing their name I think will only add more noise... Legacy of Sorasil already has so many other new artifacts, I think there is no need to add more.

Yeah, agreed. This was actually what I thought when I read the Prologue, then in the videogame I found the "Talisman of Lore" item and got confused - tried to find another explanation to match it to the Prologue (since the item really has no other function and I thought that would be too silly to be true). But reading your comment and rereading the Prologue you must be right and the Amulet of Tambor-Rin and the Oracle Stone are the talismans of lore described.

Now, the Oracle Stone actually has a function in the videogame as it gives the players hints, specifically in Quests 6,7,8 and 9 the Oracle Stone is referred to as having given information in relation to locations to go to, dangers to be encountered, and entrance passwords.

We are less fortunate with the Amulet of Tambor-Rin. It is, as far as I can see, only described in the Prologue to Quest 3 (Island of Rin):

This derelict place was once the home of Tambor-Rin, a mystic from far and wide - killed by the corrupt hand of the Dark Elves, but legend has it that Rin's Amulet of Healing still rests within the crumbling walls of his forgotten Temple of Truth

If I recall correctly, in the videogame the Quest ends as soon as you find the Amulet. So that's its main purpose there. The only other hints to its use are that it is an amulet of Healing, and that it was owned by a Mystic.

So then suggestion would be to:
1. Make the 'Talisman of Lore' and the 'Spirit Blade' the same as their original versions from the base game (Talisman of Lore: 1MP if you have EU, 2MP if you have US - and Spirit Blade: 3 attack by default, 4 is fighting Undead), and write in the Quest notes that the artifact will appear only if the Heroes don't have it yet.
2a. The Quest Items Oracle Stone and Amulet of Tambor-Rin are plot items and don't need cards. Just write them into the Quest Notes.
or
2b. Turn the Quest Items into Artifacts that the players can use - this seems more relevant with the Amulet of Tambor-Rin, to give the Mystic class also their own unique Artifact.

[therealshrek]

This is probably the one thing I always disliked. a lot of quests for Heroquest you find special artifacts, but they never tell you
what they do. There are swords, amulets, rings, etc. I think they should all have stats, and be usable. You work for him they should
be worth it. Not just the objects of quests that earn you 400 gold to split between all party members.

[HispaZargon]

Yeah, agreed. This was actually what I thought when I read the Prologue, then in the videogame I found the "Talisman of Lore" item and got confused - tried to find another explanation to match it to the Prologue (since the item really has no other function and I thought that would be too silly to be true). But reading your comment and rereading the Prologue you must be right and the Amulet of Tambor-Rin and the Oracle Stone are the talismans of lore described.

Now, the Oracle Stone actually has a function in the videogame as it gives the players hints, specifically in Quests 6,7,8 and 9 the Oracle Stone is referred to as having given information in relation to locations to go to, dangers to be encountered, and entrance passwords.

We are less fortunate with the Amulet of Tambor-Rin. It is, as far as I can see, only described in the Prologue to Quest 3 (Island of Rin):

This derelict place was once the home of Tambor-Rin, a mystic from far and wide - killed by the corrupt hand of the Dark Elves, but legend has it that Rin's Amulet of Healing still rests within the crumbling walls of his forgotten Temple of Truth

If I recall correctly, in the videogame the Quest ends as soon as you find the Amulet. So that's its main purpose there. The only other hints to its use are that it is an amulet of Healing, and that it was owned by a Mystic.

Well, I understand both Oracle Stone and Amulet of Tambor-Rin as plot artifacts... I think the "healing" context here could not be exactly refering to healing the body, I guess it is more refering to healing the souls of people, remember what the Prologue says about how Alamon The Mystic will use those two items once found by the heroes: (...) With these artifacts I shall heal the land before evil overruns us and darkness reigns all powerful. (...)

So then suggestion would be to:
1. Make the 'Talisman of Lore' and the 'Spirit Blade' the same as their original versions from the base game (Talisman of Lore: 1MP if you have EU, 2MP if you have US - and Spirit Blade: 3 attack by default, 4 is fighting Undead), and write in the Quest notes that the artifact will appear only if the Heroes don't have it yet.

Fully agree.

2a. The Quest Items Oracle Stone and Amulet of Tambor-Rin are plot items and don't need cards. Just write them into the Quest Notes.

Also agree according to my explanation above.

2b. Turn the Quest Items into Artifacts that the players can use - this seems more relevant with the Amulet of Tambor-Rin, to give the Mystic class also their own unique Artifact.

This is probably the one thing I always disliked. a lot of quests for Heroquest you find special artifacts, but they never tell you
what they do. There are swords, amulets, rings, etc. I think they should all have stats, and be usable. You work for him they should
be worth it. Not just the objects of quests that earn you 400 gold to split between all party members.

About this, well... in the videogame, after finding the Oracle Stone and Amulet of Tambor-Rin, the heroes go back to the town where it is supposed to stay Alamon... I am not too sure if they give the items to him at that time or not in the videogame but I think has sense they should give them to him if they are in the same town until going to another dangerous task with the risk of loosing them... So maybe those two items should be just plot items without any rules or extra stats for the heroes. After that, the heroes will never go back to the town until the end of the videogame (flow map here), so I think then has more sense to give the Alamon's required items some rules when they are used by heroes, including the Sorasil ones which may be so powerful items. Nevertheless, the heroes will have to give those items to Alamon at the end of the questpack (similar issue as Bow of Vindication in the Elf Quest Pack). Correct me if I am wrong, but the unique pure Sorasil three items are Paravane Shield, Palaestra Scepter & Albios Helm... The Warding Cloaks are also items from Sorasil Knights, but the heroes find four of them so I am not sure if one of them will also be requested by Alamon, maybe should be... At the end's cutscene, Sorasil also wears a new armour but there is no armour item in the game that mentions Sorasil in the description nor looks as the armour shown in the cutscene so I guess we could assume it is just a regular armour. The rest of artifacts found by heroes I think may be owned by them after the questpack.

About the rest of non-Sorasil items of course there is more freedom to design their rules. I have doubts about the Staff of Teleportation, I don't know what to think about it, maybe the heroes also should give it to Alamon after finding it or not beacause it was just an skaven item, I have no opinion yet. Well, that's part of the challenge.