[Quest Pack] [6 Quests] - Mound of the Beastmen

[Daedalus]

Any comments?

Do you agree with the changes I propose above to adapt this great expansion to the NA system?

Has anybody found more breaking points or rules in the original files?

Since the 2.0 release, I'm not sure if you're still interested in others' comments on your suggestions, but here are some from me just in case:

Due to lack of space, I guess a note was not added in Q5 to say the men-at-arms are hired by the first Hero who enters the room, but yes, for coherency I think it should have added to fit with Q1 & Q3. Nevertheless, the general rules of the questbook already explains how those mercs could be hired, so maybe all their related hiring explanations written in Q1, Q3 and Q5 should be in fact deleted to avoid any posible confusion like this one.

It seems to me that the second solution that relies on the front of the book works best. Only Quest 6 requires a contradictory instruction for that special case.

This is a breaking point... so I guess the quest maps of the last released version are designed considering that all the secret doors can only be found and opened from the "pushing" side of the wall, and not from the "pulling" side.

Then, definetively at least a general rule with a good scketch to clarify it must be added in the questbook to play it correctly. If this concept apply to all the secret doors, in my opinion it is not necessary to show any arrows in the maps, they would only add more noise to those already crowded maps.

Nevertheless, does exist any updated version of the questbook??

I'm not sure about ver 2.0, but if the Quest Book already explains that most secret doors are one way, that should be good enough. A diagram can clarify further, of course.

1) Heroes roll defence dice equal to their Mind Points when defending against the Chain Lightning Spell, and the Halls of the Forgotten's Ghosts. Is it to be inferred that any undefended hits cause the loss of Mind Points, or do they still lose Body Points?

2) In the Hall of Storms, when a Hero is hit by the lightning (Black Shield Rolled), what happen if there is a Hero directly behind you?
a) You stay in place.
b) You move back and occupy the same space as the Hero (as you would down a pit trap).
c) You move back and knock the Hero back one as well.

1) You lose body points.
2) The correct answer is B !

1) To avoid this kind of confusions, maybe a clarification about Body Points are lost as usually should be added in th Spell card and in The Halls of the Forgotten general rules.
2) ... or maybe it should be placed in the other square with the same mark number if it is free. This explanation could be also written in the Hall of Storms rules.

1) I don't think the Spell Card needs clarification (and space is tight.) Fortunately ver 2.0 clarifies damage to Body Points in the Halls of the Forgotten general rules.
2) As ver 2.0 is written, if a Hero moves forward one tile and fails the roll, he moves back to his former position; another Hero can't occupy the square he just vacated. Am I missing something, or has a fix already been incorporated?

. . . Then, in my opinion these are the stats I would give to the monsters if playing this expansion under NA rules (stats changed from last EU version marked in bold for better traceability):

- Beastmen: M5, AD3, DD2, BP2, MP3
- Shaman: M6, AD2, DD4, BP3, MP5
- Beastlord: M6, AD2*, DD2*+DD1, BP4, MP4 - *Special Combat Dice
- Chaoshound: M8, AD2, DD2, BP3, MP2, Special Ability: May attack diagonally

Warning: Beware of the EU original files of this expansion since I think there are some typing errors. English version's Beastlord card only says it only defend with 2 Special Combat Dice, however the English & French questbooks and French card also adds a regular Combat Die in defense to the 2 special dice, which I think is the correct. In the other hand, I think the French version of the Shaman card has also a mistake since it says that it attacks with just 1 Combat Die, however the French & English questbooks and the English cards say that it attacks with 2 Combat Dice, which I think is the correct value.

I think your choices for stats are well reasoned. The English ver 2.0 cards and Quest Book have the correct Attack and Defend scores for the Shaman and Beast Lord, so only the Body Points need to change along with the Beastman Defend score and the addition of the Chaos Hound diagonal attack (perhaps included as part of a large monster rule if you want to go that far.)

According to the current questbook prologue I think it should be played just after playing Wizards of Morcar/Zargon expansion, but it unfortunately it is not clearly written in the book, so I think it should be a good addon. About the equipment loss at the beggining, it should be also be clarified in the questbook, I think.

Perhaps the first Quest, The Forest of Shadows, can clarify the loss of previous equipment:

NOTE: The Heroes begin this Quest in the
clearing, on the spaces adjacent to the X. They
only possess starting equipment. Heroes must
cross off all other equipment and treasure
from their Character Sheets.

That can bring things in line with Pan's intent, but essentially killing the Heroes narratively in all but names is a questionable premise, in my opinion. Hero Quest advancement is important to most players, so many groups aren't likely to sit well with their longstanding Heroes being demoted to square one. Wouldn't it be better to adjust the intro narrative so that a new group of Heroes is brought in (with Pan's permission)? "Then again, looking back to when Mentor contacted you while you were savouring your recent defeat of the powerful Wizards of Morcar, you could already sense from the tone of his voice his concerns over what exhilarating challenges might be foreseeable" for a champion Hero of your mettle."

The Admiral's explanation about why these traps can be automatically disarmed has convinced me, I agree. In this case the trap is not intended to be hidden for the Heroes nor being undisarmable, and otherwise it would work just as a regular Spear trap, so creating a new trap would not make too much sense. Maybe explaining a bit such justification in th questbook would be a good idea. Nevertheless, Daedalus I think is right too about pointing that a Hero should move to the trap square and make a disarming action to disarm it, event if no die roll is needed for it. Then, some wording fixes I think should be added to the trap rules as written now to make it more clear if we want to play the expansion according to NA rules.

. . . Unfortunately for any unwary adventurer, stepping on it by mistake will result in the loss of 1 Body Point. If the trap is discovered or triggered, it must be removed from the board.

I think the wording is clear about the need to search for a Chaos Hound trap. How else is "stepping on it by mistake" possible unless the trap were unknown to him? Also, how can the trap be "if . . . discovered" without a search? Despite needing to be searched for like a Spear trap, the two traps are differentiated by their disarm mechanisms. A spear trap requires a tool kit or Dwarf ability to disarm with a chance of failure, but a Chaos Hound trap requires nothing other than a disarm attempt (no tools or ability) that is automatically successful.

There aren't any tiles included for the Chaos Hound trap. For a fix, I'd suggest changing

". . . Unfortunately for any unwary adventurer, stepping on it by mistake will result in the loss of 1 Body Point. As a Hero, when you If the trap is discovered or triggered, it must be removed from the board."
to
. . . Unfortunately for any unwary adventurer, stepping on it by mistake will result in the loss of 1 Body Point. If a Hero first searches for traps, the revealed Chaos Hound trap can automatically be disarmed by springing it with any solid object. If the trap is disarmed or triggered, it is gone forever and the square can be moved onto safely.

Mmm... I like the Daedalus' idea of giving the opportunity of disarming the traps (=sealing the tombs) with the risk of activating them if the check fails (=awaking the undead!) as The Admiral suggested. I think I would introduce the combination of both ideas...

Searching for the trap is unnecessary, but some mention of disarming will be needed at the end of the entry, I think. I imagine doing so is similar to disarming a furniture/chest trap, where there is no mention of standing on the trap. Like the Tomb furniture piece, Zargon can be left to figure out how to handle this.

. . . Each tomb can only be triggered once per Quest. A tomb trap may be disarmed, sealing the undead within (failure releases the undead).

Daedalus is right, four tomb tiles are not enough according to the quest maps. However, I think it can be easily fixed without printing more tiles. I would add a note to the Tomb Trap rules explaining that once the undead monster is revived, the tomb tile must be removed from the board. This would probably solve any problem about running out of tomb tiles and at the same time it will help to track which tombs are already inactive on the board.

Pan's 2.0 release includes 8 tomb tiles now, so Zargon won't be caught short. Removing a trap tile is an EU convention. As the tomb blocks movement like furniture, I'd say it should stay on the board just as a disarmed treasure chest does. The NA rules require both the Hero and Zargon players to remember the location of traps; players must note unsprung ones, and Zargon must remember which are sprung. Pan's rules rely on remembering as well, so that fits with an NA adaptation. I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble of inclusion, but Zargon could be instructed in the Tomb rules to place a Tomb tile exactly as pictured in the map and to rotate it when the undead is released or the tomb is sealed to mark its harmless state.

For the beginning of the Tomb entry:

Old moldy tombs in which undead creatures lie dormant dot the barrows and can hold unpleasant surprises for adventurous Heroes. Orient a tomb tile exactly as shown on the Quest Map. Each time a Hero enters a room that contains a tomb, he must roll one combat die.

And for the end of the entry:

. . . Each tomb can only be triggered once per Quest. A tomb trap may be disarmed, sealing the undead within (failure releases the undead). Whether the undead is sealed in or released, rotate the tomb tile 180 degrees to indicate its new state.

Ok, points 1) and 2) are clear, but I think a brief clarification should be added about those topics in the trap rules.

However, for me probably the weakest point of this expansion are the disarming rules defined for these Rune Traps. I like a lot the concept of imagining the Beastmen Shamans using their dark magic to create these traps, but sorry it is difficult for me to imagine that any regular Hero can disarm them by using a toolkit, like if they were any other standard trap... I think these Rune Traps should be treated more as magical traps than physical ones, like the Fireburst traps from Wizards of Morcar expansion, which could only be 'disarmed' y casting a Tempest spell for example. It is true that Runes are always graved in physical items like stone or metal, and races like Dwarves are supposed to be experts in Runes graving and so on, so Ok, I would allow that these traps can be detected by just a regular searching action since the runes could be probably been 'seen' by anyone written somewhere, but I think a any disarming mechanic for these traps should be linked with magic, at least in a partial way, and avoid making any regular disarming actions.

I don't know how to solve it yet, any idea?

Cancel with a Pass Through Rock spell. OR Wash away or dissolve with any potion. OR Roll a number of dice equal to a Hero's Mind Points, a 6 cancels the rune.

I don't feel that the rune trap effects random table currently works too well with disarming, particularly the 3-4 result that disarms the spell. For NA rules, I'd say a trap effect is better treated with a combat die. Perhaps = explosion, or = thrown back. If there's gotta be a dud result, then make that a black shield instead.

Quest 2:
- I agree, the Evil Wisp should be like a Monster for searching mechanics, after all I always understood that the absence of Monsters for searching is needed to allow the apropriate concentration to search, so for the same reason I think the Evil Wisp should not be in the same area (corridor section in this case) as the Hero who want to search. Then, adding some kind of clarification in Note B I think is required.
- About the door marked E, yes, I also think its rules are quite vague in order to avoid using breaking spells like Pass Through Rock and Genie, so a sentence in Note E explaining that magic cannot be used to access the central room is also something required. Additionally, I would say that I missed the Evil Wisp tile description in the first pages of the questbook, with the rest of tiles.

Quest 3:
- Yes, I agree. Those rooms with special rules I think should be also marked at least to just indicating that they have special rules which should be checked in the first pages of the book.
- About Note E comment, I would go one extra mile further... in my humble opinion this questpack should be always played by using the Compendium and all those kind of problems will be solved. HeroQuest is a fantasy game where imagination and narrative I think are one of the best things of the game and probably the best thing of this expansion, so I would definitively write somewhere in the questbook that this adventure must be always be played by using the Compendium texts.

Quest 4:
- About Note E comment I would say the same as my last comment: The Compendium should always be used.

Quest 5:
- About Pit and Runic Rooms comments, yes, I already told above that those special rooms need an entry in the map.
- Agree about Note H correction.

Quest 6:
- About Notes A and G comments I would say the same as in previous comments: The Compendium should always be used.

Quest 2:
- I believe ver 2.0 has addressed the issue by including: ". . . The Wisp (which is considered a monster) cannot leave the shaded area . . ."
- Good catch about the lack of an Evil Wisp tile entry. It should fit at the end if the herdstone artwork is reduced.

Quest 3:
- My recommended solution is to reduce the New Tiles entry

The Beastmen Shamans often perform evil magic in the depths of the Barrow and leave
their unfinished experiments in certain rooms. This room can be triggered only once
during a Quest.

and add a new Note B

After the first Hero enters this room, 2 creatures will
arise at its center. To determine which creatures,
Zargon draws 2 monster cards at random.

- Pan has corrected a new Note D in ver 2.0 to account for Vivigor's escape. Do what you like with integrating the Compendium, but it's no longer needed to fix the Quest 3 to Quest 4 transition.

Quest 4:
- Pan has apparently changed the Parchment Text storyline in ver 2.0 to keep the Vivigor one step ahead of the Heroes. He is no longer present in this Quest. I'm not sure about changes in the Compendium entries.

Quest 5:
Version 2.0 has apparently reworked some Quest Maps. (See the Quest 6 and Quest 7 entries below.)

Quest 5 6:
- My recommended solution is to reduce the New Tiles entry

Dug by the skillful Beastman hunters, this large pit must be jumped across. Monsters are
not affected by this tile.

and add a new Note C

A Hero crossing this pit must roll 1 combat die:
Skull: The Hero falls into the pit. A Beastman appears
across the pit and immediately attacks. The Hero must
defend with 1 less combat die but can continue his turn.
Any shield: The Hero successfully jumps over the pit.

I feel since NA rules for Mercenaries specify that they move as a Hero and are controlled by a Hero player, they should not be able to ignore traps like monsters controlled by Zargon. (This is also true for the EU Men-at-Arms.) The New Tiles entry above for the Pit room tile reflects this as mention of them has been removed. If you want to go with Pan's original intent and include them as an exception that's fine, but be sure to change "Men at Arms" to Mercenaries if you do.

Space is tight in the Notes section of this Quest, so to gain a line from Pan's Note C "characteristics" should be changed to stats. Also, "On his turn," can be replaced by On his future turns, so that "This effect repeats at the start of each of his turns until he escapes," may be dropped, freeing up another line space. This creates enough room for the new Note C mentioned just above.

Quest 5 7:
- The Runic room tile text proposed above for Quest 3 can be reused here in a new Note E (3 lines plus a space).
- add a new Note F

See room "C" of Quest 6 for information about crossing the pit.

The Quest and room reference just above is modeled on Quest 8, room F note of the BQP. This format is employed in the BQP where there is no room otherwise in the Notes section (for the ice ledge rules).
- Pan's room E note states that Garghol the Mad can't be attacked at this time. However his characteristics stats include a defense value, Mind Points and Body Points. Does this mean that he may be attacked after any buying of equipment? Some clarification is needed here. Otherwise, a Hero bypassing him in some way to get at room F risks getting stranded. Also, the NA game doesn't contain the keywords WEAPON and ARMOUR. To fix this, I'd suggest this text entry

Garghol the Mad blocks the way before you. He will
not move and cannot be attacked until he attacks.
If a Hero gives him a Rune of Blood, he will sell him
one weapon from the Armory. If Garghol is given a
second Rune of Blood, he will sell one helmet,
shield, chain mail or plate mail. Driven by madness,
he will immediately attack afterwards (whether the
Heroes buy or not). Garghol has the following stats:

Yes, I agree about there is there a clear errata. However, I think the errata is just in the Compendium book since it can be easily fixed there with just one change: deleting bubble 3 symbol on page 12 and placing a new bubble symbol 3 on the same page at the beggining of the last paragraph. I think this change solves any posible confusion without introducing any change in the quest book.

. . . I agree...I honestly don't understand the role of Garghol character. Maybe a new bubble note in the Compendium should be added giving some context about him? For me it makes no sense.

A posible solution to fix this (in my humble opinion) vague character role could be the following, adding a new bubble note in the Compendium explaining it if needed: once the Heroes find Garghol, he tells them that he will allow them passing through the corridor if they gave him 2 Runes of Blood. If not, Garghol will block the corridor and only defeating him could allow the heroes to advance. AND I would add a note in room marked D saying that the heroes will find in the Weapons Rack placed in such room one weapon and one armour which they can freely choose from the Armory. I think it could be a balanced solution (they will only find one weapon and one armor, but their cost will be free)

I haven't been checking the Compendium, so I'll just assume your fixes work with p. 12.

I also had a bit of trouble understanding where Garghol fit in and assumed the Compendium explained his presence in the Quest. Furthermore, I'm unsure where the Heroes can get a secpnd Rune of Blood beyond room H, but if you can find it in the earlier Quests, then OK. I already worked up and adjusted room E room entry above, but your solution with a separate room for a weapons rack sounds good since gold treasure is scarce in this Quest Pack anyway.

In my opinion, if you fail the die roll, it should be be treated as falling in a regular pit trap or being attacked by a Wandering Monster: Then, the Hero turn finishes there.

But, I think the overall rules about this trap could be better defined. I think this pit trap should be as deep as a regular pit trap, so I think the Hero first should lose 1 BP if falling into the pit and after that being attacked by the beastman. AND if playing under NA game system rules I think the jumping rules for this pit room should be the same as the ones defined to jump the long way of a Large Pit in Mage of the Mirro expansion, since it is also a 2 squares jump, which means the Hero mus roll a Black Shield to make a succesfull jump. Of course these changes make this pit room much more challenging for the Heroes, but...

Darn. I didn't read this far before I reworked Note C in Quest 6. I'm going to the French source with Google Translate now to understand what Pan had in mind . . .

. . . Well, here's the translated text in question

Skull: The player falls into the pit and alerts a
Beastman who immediately atacks from a space
adjacent to the pit. The player, penalized for being
below, defends with one less die for the duration of the
combat. They ca then leave the pit. White or Black
Shield: The player manages to jump safely to the other side
of the pit.

The defining characteristic is the Beastman blocking four squares, which pins one or more Heroes in the pit at -1 defense until it is slain. This is certainly unique and potentially difficult, but I can appreciate why you'd prefer to have the pit work more with current NA rules. Can this be modified to fit on the Quest Page?

A Hero crossing this pit must roll 1 combat die. If a black
shield is rolled, the Hero safely jumps over the pit.
Otherwise, the Hero falls in, suffering 1 Body Point of
damage and his turn ends. A Beastman appears across
from the pit and immediately attacks. While in a pit, a
Hero attacks and defends with 1 less combat die.

Yes, this could be fit in the room C text for my Quest 6 suggested entry above, but the spacing around Urglok's stats would need to be compressed a bit to make room for the extra line.

Bonemangler:
Considering an average AD value from EU Heroes of 2 AD, like using a shortsword in NA system, I think this magical weapon should be in NA system better like a kind of a special Broadsword, since its combination with a Shield is allowed, which allows you attacking with 2 regular dice + 1 special dice. If we give it 1 more regular die as Daedalus suggests (3 regular + 1 special) I think it would be too overpowered since rolling 4 Skulls would be quite easy (remember the special die has 2 faces with a Double Skull !!). My proposal always forces to obtain a Double Skull in the special die to get the bonus, which I think is cool. Additionally I think that the card sentence "... but only if it is a monster" means that the only regular monsters, and not characters, can be killed by the bonus, so I suggests fixing a bit the text in that way to make it more clear.

Ashgor's Valor:
Fully agree with Daedalus and The Admiral: in NA rules it should be as a Chain Mail +1 basic BP bonus.

Sure, rolling 2 white combat dice plus 1 orange combat dice with Bonemangler is deadly enough. The 1-handed use and autokill already make it powerful. Here's a suggested change for the artifact card

Bonemangler
This savage-looking battle axe gives
you the attack strength of 2 combat
dice and 1 orange die. If you roll 4
or more skulls, you instantly kill any
monster (but not a one uniquely
named in the Quest Notes). May not
be used by the Wizard.

While the Elven Bow of Vindication could instantly slay Sinestra, Bonemangler couldn't with this special ability. (She only has 4 BPs, so no matter.) This ability wouldn't work on the Frozen Horror, either. Polar Warbears and Ogres are especially vulnerable, however. I hope that's fine.

That’s one of the three variations of orange dice I found but not the one Pan had in mind when creating this quest book. I PM’d him and he confirmed this is the correct orange dice for Mound of the Beastmen:

- one face with skull x1
- two faces with double skulls
- one face with black shield
- one face with double black shields
- one face with double white shields

Yes, Nlinindoll is right.

That was the special orange dice faces distribution before May/2016, the original ones considered by Pan when he designed the questpack.

I think the special dice faces original distribution should be clearly described in the questbook for future tracking. (I remember that the very old version of the questbook described them, but unfortunately not the last one published in the author's website)

Pan's ver 2.0 now includes an explanation of the orange die faces. I'm a bit unsatisfied that an alternative isn't provided for those who don't have this unofficial die--this is too restrictive. What about adding some text under the orange die face images and rearranging them to match a red-die option?

In place of orange dice, you may use red dice and apply these values for die results:

1 = 1 black shield, 2 = 2 black shields, 3 = 1 white shield, 4 = 1 skull, 5 or 6 - 2 skulls

Ok, better "Barrow".


Well, I will include in later posts more comments I have to this expansion, for discussion.

But wait, there's more? I'll respond two years from now.

One last observation. There may be a bottom margin issue with some Quests as you apply NA Parchment Text with Quest numbers.