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Having a dragon in HQ?

Discuss the creation of new Monsters and share Monsters you've created.

Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday June 1st, 2021 12:09pm

The only limit is your imagination and the willingness of your gaming group to suspend disbelief...

whitebeard wrote:HQ is all about one-time / per quest adjustments to the rules to make simple and exciting adventures. If you constrain yourself to "The doors are symbolic of passage, and somehow everyone is able to squeeze through them, period." then you are missing all kinds of potential for cool new adventures. Examine all of your strongest assumptions about the rules and game pieces, pick one, and create a justification to break it for one quest. Such quests rival the original base set.

The 1" squares are roughly 5 feet x 5 feet at 28mm and for a hero represents the area you do not want to stand inside while they are swinging a weapon. A dragon at 2x3 is more like elephant size for the main body with the addition of long neck/tail and wings. This is crushingly huge in a small space and incredibly dangerous, but not something which cannot be killed by swords and a bit of strategy / luck.


I'm saying FOR ME it's ridiculous to have the kind of popular "HUGE" dragon as a "boss" (four legs, plus giant wings, plus spits fire and has armor AND magic) for the four standard heroes to fight. I know several people have come up with their solutions to making this dream a reality, including giving it multiple attacks (paw, jaws, tail, etc), fire formations and so on. It would seem that it not fitting through a doorway would be the least of your worries. Make it outside, make the door big, say the castle was built around it, say it's a magic shape shifting dragon that travels through other dimensions, who knows!

You could come up with all kinds of excuses how it makes sense... healing fountains, magical weapons and armor that can harm it, etc. For me, the Dragon we've used (and would use) is 1x2, simple as that, not much bigger than the "canon" monsters. Even a 1x3 dragon makes a heck of a lot more sense as something the Heroes could realistically fight than something as big as a house. Heroes who struggle against a few Chaos Warriors may have a good time fighting something akin to Godzilla, but that isn't a good time to me, though you may disagree.

The type of dragon that looks cool that people want to use seems to be the sort of beast that you'd need an army to take down, or some kind of BS macguffin held by the legendary chosen one and his faithful squire (or you're not meant to fight it, only escape, trap it, etc). I want to keep it simple and neat, so my dragon is just like any other monster... yes, it can fly and shoot fire and use magic, and it's "big" but not the type of spectacle that may be popular in other types of games. I'm not saying ridiculous in the sense of it can't possibly work, but that it doesn't fit into the type of game I want to play and I've modified Heroquest a ton, just not as extensively as some have. I prefer to fit it into the simplicity of the official rules as much as possible.

Crazy gimmicks for quests? I'm all in favor, just on this one I disagree. 2x3 isn't THAT big, but to me 1x2 works just fine. Dragonstrike uses a few "large" monsters and none of them are really that over the top in terms of size. Rather than having a lot of surface area (only four heroes to corner and strike at it) I would focus on making it strong or tricky to beat (or use it as a gimmick to force them to flee/solve the puzzle). You could have it as a creature your summon too, come to think of it.

But in your game? I have no say in that. ;) :2cents:
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby iKarith » Tuesday June 1st, 2021 1:28pm

whitebeard wrote:
iKarith wrote:The thing I wonder about for a big monster is how does it work on the game board? Most corridors are too narrow for a "large" monster and bigger than that just don't work. Dark Fyre was "large" (2x2) wasn't it?

How did you handle it? Many BP, a few spells, and the possibility of up to 8 adjacent heroes attacking at once (but careful because something that big is likely to hit pretty hard!)


Nothing wrong with having doors too small for a dragon to use. :)
]/quote]

:lol: In fact, the players might appreciate when they walk in and there's a freakin' dragon that they can go right back out the door they came in and the dragon can't follow… But almost none of HQ's corridors will accommodate a "wide" entity, so you're basically limited to the dragon in a single room. Only the central room seems reasonable. It just seems like a limitation of the HQ board which is otherwise pretty versatile if perhaps tight quarters in places. I think it's why games like Dragonstrike came with multiple boards.

whitebeard wrote:Have a look at "The Eastmoor Keep Incident" http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3223&start=20#p81595 for playing a 3x2 dragon... the stats and powers of the dragon might be in the DungeonsDark intro materials.


I'll have a look. I did pick up copies of DragonStrike and Dragon Quest recently. Neither is complete, but I've got the boards and the minis from DragonStrike EXCEPT the dragon. Missing two of the dice and the VHS as well, but I have made a DVD because cheese that thick deserves to be in that box. DragonQuest … The cards, dice, and metal minis were not in the box. So I have the big castle-themed board and that's it. Paper standees and plastic minis? Okay technically I have those, but I'd never want to play a game with either since a yawn would knock them all over and the consideration given to game materials suggests that's a real danger. If I had the cards and someone has come up with a better set of standees, I might be willing to investigate the game a little sometime. Otherwise it's an alt board for HQ.

Kurgan wrote:I'm saying FOR ME it's ridiculous to have the kind of popular "HUGE" dragon as a "boss" (four legs, plus giant wings, plus spits fire and has armor AND magic) for the four standard heroes to fight. I know several people have come up with their solutions to making this dream a reality, including giving it multiple attacks (paw, jaws, tail, etc), fire formations and so on. It would seem that it not fitting through a doorway would be the least of your worries. Make it outside, make the door big, say the castle was built around it, say it's a magic shape shifting dragon that travels through other dimensions, who knows!


I think a dragon can work as a boss, you'd just have to scale it according to what's reasonable for HQ's four more reasonable/mortal characters. 2x3 spaces size seems quite appropriate for small "dragon" (as much SF as fantasy, but the Pern series routinely featured dragons that size. If you haven't read it, Pern was a planet whose organic life was attacked periodically by silvery strands falling to the surface from space. Settlers discovered the planet's indigenous life included these winged lizard-like creatures that had the ability to breathe fire. The geneticist used her knowledge to modify these creatures to be more intelligent, larger, and able to communicate telepathically. Settlers measure time on Pern in "passes" (during which the planet is under attack) and "intervals" where they aren't.

The first dragons grown during the first pass… were barely large enough to fly with their riders who would care for them and feed them the chalk-like "firestone" that let them belch forth flame to burn these threads in midair. while ground crews with nitric acid sprayers to burn their burrows before they spread. By the ninth pass some 1700 years later, the largest dragon was maybe the size of Smaug from The Hobbit, but the greens and blues are still maybe the size of DarkFyre.

To make that size dragon work in HQ shouldn't be too hard. Give it a good number of attack dice (maybe as much as 5?) and like 8 BP. Give it reasonable attack and defense dice for a final boss in a campaign for well-equipped heroes to face, and give it a finite number of breath weapon attacks that hit more like the wizard's fire spells do than typical attacks. Perhaps the quest or those before it involve something heroes had to do to keep it from just flying away? And now you've got reason for the four heroes to fight a dragon and have a reasonable chance to beat it, but also a pretty good chance they might get their gooses cooked if they roll badly and fail to strategize a bit.

Maybe you play the quest out effectively with half the board and the other half is open air the dragon could escape to if you didn't … something. You going through the half of the board you're playing on is going through a cave network to get to the dragon's den unnoticed, doing something to trap the dragon at home, and then go in and kill it before it manages to dig out the entrance to its cavern?
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby Kurgan » Tuesday June 1st, 2021 2:06pm

mitchiemasha wrote:Here's 1 I found for £2

Image

My preferred choice of dragon. The Dragon Strike Game Mini is similar to grey, the both fit the board better.


Found a match for that... reminds me of harryhausen or the giant claw!

https://www.amazon.com/Guaishou-Fantasy-Ancient-Soldiers-Warriors/dp/B07BR34NJT/ref=sr_1_14?dchild=1&keywords=wicked+duals&qid=1622570564&sr=8-14

And if you do want some other cool looking "dinosaur dragons" check out hobby lobby.
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby Thor-in » Tuesday June 1st, 2021 10:07pm

I can agree with everything everyone has said in one way or they other.

However the dragons I want to use are referenced too dragon lance and in the books the dragons had the ability to transform into humans size just for this reason of being to big for hallways and corridors.

So it's only a matter of your imagination and what you are willing to do to challenge your hero's.
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday June 2nd, 2021 7:20pm

Here are relative sizes of "big" monster figures compared to Darkfyre from Dragonstrike. Please note that some of these figures are resin reproductions rather than the originals but the sizes are accurate.

If I have more time I can re-take the pic on the board with the "manscorpion" figure from DS which I also have here somewhere...

[Ogre][Darkfyre][Frozen Horror][Giant Wolf][Gargoyle]
(on the quest maps, Giant Wolves and the Frozen Horror are considered "large" monsters and their icons take up 2 squares)
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby iKarith » Thursday June 3rd, 2021 12:26am

Kurgan wrote:Here are relative sizes of "big" monster figures compared to Darkfyre from Dragonstrike. Please note that some of these figures are resin reproductions rather than the originals but the sizes are accurate.

If I have more time I can re-take the pic on the board with the "manscorpion" figure from DS which I also have here somewhere...

[Ogre][Darkfyre][Frozen Horror][Giant Wolf][Gargoyle]
(on the quest maps, Giant Wolves and the Frozen Horror are considered "large" monsters and their icons take up 2 squares)


Darkfyre looks to be taking up 1x3, but a slightly larger full inch vs. the slightly smaller HQ bases. Or is it bigger than that?
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby Kurgan » Thursday June 3rd, 2021 1:09am

Best way to explain it is to use the canonical Ogre base as a comparison. The "standard" HeroQuest figures, as found in the game system and most of the rest of the sets have bases that are hex shaped, about 25 mm at the widest point. The Ogre bases are closer to 1 inch (25.4 mm). The DarkFyre base is the size of two Ogre bases laid end to end, so 1x2 inches. So bigger than two standard board squares, but not by much. You might compare it to how the furniture typically sits on like four or six squares when in reality it's just slightly overlapping some of them.

But the Ogres all have bigger bases than the rest of the HeroQuest figures. I guess I could have traced the base shapes and put them on a grid to really show the difference. Yes, Darkfyre is tall with big spread out wings, but when you think about it most of the figures have something sticking out or over, whether it be swords or whatever. Obviously if these were "real" they would be able to move their limbs and "squeeze" through hallways and things rather than like statues sliding on rollers through them.

Again in game terms only the base really matters. It's not like you can attack the edge of the Gargoyle's wing, you are able to hit him if you are adjacent to the square his base is on (or able to draw a straight unobstructed line from your character's base to his, in the case of a missile weapon or spell). The Giant Wolf looks funny with a big portion of his model sticking off the base, but any square that is adjacent (or a few diagonal) can hit him. As it says in the EQP/BQP notes, the figure doesn't have to be facing a figure in order to attack.

I don't have the Dragonstrike Gargoyle (the one that has no base, looking more like furniture than a monster) but the rest all seem to fit nicely on a HQ board, or even better on a 1 inch square board. Fighting Mimics of the furniture has shown me that "large" monsters are no big deal. Threads discussing how they can pivot around and maneuver around obstacles have been discussed as well. The same would apply to a character like this.
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ?

Postby iKarith » Thursday June 3rd, 2021 2:18am

I was comparing to the wolves which I understand to be 1x2, base-wise, but really kind of 1x2.5. Darkfyre looked to be that extra length at least in the base. But 1x2 would make Darkfyre a smallish dragon.
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Re: Having a dragon in HQ? Base sizes

Postby Kurgan » Thursday June 3rd, 2021 11:58am

Yes, these dragons have bigger bases than any official HQ miniatures, but they're not THAT much bigger than the biggest ones, the "large monsters" that are supposed to be two squares.

Compared to the fantasy creatures tube Dragons (light and dark gray) and the base it uses is the same size as the Darkfyre base (just has a corner shaved off). The Dragonstrike Manscorpion has a slightly shorter base. Again here's another comparison pic, sorry for the lack of a board beneath it (that is packed away right now).

Actually I should say the Fantasy creatures tube base can even be slightly larger (looks like they were cut manually rather than based on a standardized die cut)! But it still fits the board well enough as a 2 square character (2 ogre bases lined up equals one of the dragons' bases).

I suppose I could measure it in actual mm, but I think visually you can see what I mean. If you want to say it's a three square character, go for it, but it's definitely not a 4 or 6 square character. Height doesn't matter, and outside the base doesn't matter. If you were playing this on a 2 dimensional plane it would be a rectangle while the regular characters would be squished hexagons half the length.

Edit: added an underside shot.
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