buffing the wizard

[Ethica]

I think the Wizard should be allowed to have 6 defence dice like the others. He's still vulnerable, cause he only has the 4 body points. And bear in mind not everyone is going to have 6 defence unless they're opting for plate armour, because there's only 1 borins armour available.

[ken]

I think the Wizard should be allowed to have 6 defence dice like the others. He's still vulnerable, cause he only has the 4 body points. And bear in mind not everyone is going to have 6 defence unless they're opting for plate armour, because there's only 1 borins armour available.

Interesting thread, this. If you look at The Wizards of Morcar, they all have at least 4 Attack, and 5 Defence dice, some more than this. So, why should the Good Wizard have less? Our house rules state extra body points can be bought between Quests, set your own price, if you go down this road. My Wizard, Bar-dun the Dragonslayer was based on Gandalf, he was a tough old bird, and took crap from nobody. Not sure where my figure came from,

Bar-dun..doc

As he already had a bow, I let him start with this and a dagger. He exchanged the dagger for a staff as he progressed. He started with 6 BP, and has purchased two more, so he can fight his corner against most comers.

[Daedalus]

...Which raised another question during my latest games: What do you do with lost equipment that is unique, such as Borin's Armor or Orcs Bane? Do you ever add them back into a quest, or are they forever lost? Or can surviving heroes pick up the fallen comrade's loot? Or only unique loot?

On p.14 of the same manual under Between Quests:

If your character survives, you may keep him and use him again in
subsequent Quests. In this case, you may keep any Quest treasure cards
you have found, and you may spend any treasure recorded on your character sheet
to purchase better equipment (armour, weapons, and so on)....

Borin's Armour has the descriptor ARMOUR at the bottom of the Quest treasure card, and Orcs Bane has the keyword WEAPON at the bottom. That qualifies them as equipment, as defined on the p.14 entry, above. Other Quest treasure cards follow the same rule.

Found in the British 2nd ed. rules at the top of p.10 under the Combat section:

...Eliminated characters and monsters are immediately removed from play. Any
Equipment or gold the eliminated character had may be picked up by another
character, who searches for treasure in the room or passage in which the
character was eliminated. However, the evil wizard player may also claim the
Equipment and gold if, on his next turn he moves a monster into the same room
or passage, in which the character was eliminated.

If a monster picks up the possesions of the eliminated character they are removed
from the game, the monster may not use either the Equipment or the gold....

Don't be fooled by the capitalization of Equipment in the above entry, as the British rules don't consistently capitalize game terms. Any equipment may be picked up (not just unique loot), including Quest treasures such as Borin's Armour and Orcs Bane.

Should a monster pick up a fallen character's equipment and gold, Quest treasures such as Borin's Armour and Orcs Bane are lost forever. This is problematic with certain Quest treasures that are necessary to complete a Quest, such as Spirit Blade. To correct this oversight, I'd suggest using a rule from p.23 of the US Instruction Booklet under Lost Artifacts that was later published with the benefit of EU playtesting:

It is sometimes required that the Heroes
have a specific artifact in their possession
before they continue on to the next Quest.
Zargon, if a Hero dies while in posssession
of an artifact, and your monsters steal
the artifact, you must include the artifact
as a special treasure early in the next Quest.

If the wizard wears Borin's Armor, can he also wear the wizard's cloak over it? And the bracers? This would give him 6 defense dice, which might be too much. You could say either Borin's armor OR the cloak + bracers. I think 4 defense diece should be the max, at least during the original game and KK (haven't gotten any further yet, so perhaps later on 5 or 6 defense dice would be appropriate). Your thoughts?

The British rules manual briefly discusses the limits of combining armor on p.14 under Equipment cards: "...You may not wear more than one type of body armour at one time." Unfortunately, the Borin's Armour, Cloak of Protection and Bracers cards all only have the ARMOUR descriptor at the bottom, with no mention of body armour. It's up to you to decide how they are combined.

I'm pretty sure both the Cloak of Protection and Bracers were intended as two different types of combinable body armor, as they both are only usable by the Wizard, and it would be redundant to have a more expensive Cloak of Protection up for purchase if it couldn't be combined with the Bracers.

Judging by the card art alone, you could also allow the Bracers to be combined with Borin's Armour. However, I've read a thread where arguments both for and against combining Bracers and body armor are presented. The Cloak of Protection largely follows the same premise, but as the Cloak of Protection and Borin's Armour both cover the same body area, I'd say they could both be considered the same type of body armor and can't be combined. This is just an interpretation to rationalize a compromised limit, however. That would allow 5 defense dice.

The US rules don't allow the Wizard to use Borin's Armor at all. You could go with that instead, problem solved.

Because your suggestion of seperating the use of Borin's Armour from the Cloak of Protection and Bracers most reflects the US solution (Wizard's Cloak only for 3 total dice of defense), I think you found the most balanced solution within the EU system.

[Sjeng]

Allright! Thanks for the clear explanation.

I'll let the wizard wear the cloak and bracers then. I'll have to print them, because my 1st edition EU set does not have them. Max defense = 4.
Borin's armor is basically a unique armour that cannot be combined with other armor, except the shield. This armor is most usefull in the hands of the barbarian, elf or dwarf, as they alone can carry shields. Max defense = 5.
Then there's the platemail + shield: max defense = 5. Although the helm may be combined with the platemail (and chainmail) too, so that would make this item preferable over Borins Armor (in the long run, when there's more gold available).
I'm going to forfeit the movement penalty though, as we need to save up big time of we ever want to buy it. Gold doesn't come very easily to us I've noticed.

If the quests ever get so tough we need additional armour, I'll just make up a new type of shield or something that has an extra +1. Perhaps simply a ring or amulet of defense +1.

I won't let unique items be bought however, as they have no price, and are unique. So logically, you wouldn't be able to just buy them at any blacksmith in town. I didn't know we could search fallen comrades however, so I'll have to remeber that

Well, glad that's cleared up!

[Daedalus]

I agree that unique items shouldn't be bought. That's why Borin's Armour is problematic for me. In this thread the issue of Borin's Armour including a Helmet or not was discussed. If you consider the picture, then it can't be combined with a Helmet--4 total defense dice possible without a Shield. That's equivalent to Chain Mail and a Helmet, and that essentially sets a price of 570 gold coins for Borin's Armour using the EU costs. Borin's Armour doesn't amount to a unique item, as its effects can be duplicated by a trip to the town blacksmith.

For that reason, I'd recommend discounting the card art in favor of allowing a Helmet to be combined with Borin's Armour. If that's not to taste because you feel Helmet and Mail should be a set, then houserule it to 5 defend dice without a Shield, pimped Helmet included. The card is broken as presented.

I don't know if you already checked this self-promoted thread or not, but it discusses some Plate Mail movement options that may be of interest.

[knightkrawler]

Borin's Armour doesn't amount to a unique item, as its effects can be duplicated by a trip to the town blacksmith.

I handle it like this for Borin's armor to remain a unique item:
Ignore the helmet in the picture, it's not included (mind you that many of the pictures on cards and rule book and quest books don't fit the text).

Borin's armor is thus effectively plate mail (4 DD) WITHOUT movement penalty (as opposed to normal plate) to be supplemented by shield (+1 DD) and/or helmet (+1 DD).
So full protection in Borin's armor sums up to 6 DD without movement penalty (in the German card version this is significantly printed: no movement penalty. So it must have been clearly the thought of the inventor that it's platemail with asignificant difference, which makes it an artifact).

[el_flesh]

How much of house rules does any given group play with?
For us, the magic staff also adds a defense die, because Beernut compares it to Gandalf doing his incredible staff work. So the staff gets +1defense as well as +1 magic attack. (Giving 1 point of spirit/magic dmg, the same type dmg as the spirit sword needed in the original quests).
The only thing your group decides is, do you apply that 1 magic dmg to spirit or to physical as well?

Buying extra defense/attack is the same for us as training - which does have a limit. Beernut allows it only in large towns, which doesn't happen between quests too often. You can also roll to decide which types of training are available in a particular town.

[cynthialee]

As Borins armour does not specificaly state in the card that it can not be combined with a helm that using a helm with the armour is acceptable.
Like was already stated it is broken dice wise if no helmet is allowed. Also the art on many cards leaves something to be desired.

[el_flesh]

Why couldn't you use a helm with it? Does it have a helm of its own included??
No? Then use the helm. Woohoo! strong heroes = ego trip players! fun fun fun time! until they meet a DRAGON

[knightkrawler]

...a dragon who's wearing a helmet.
Then the heroes' advantage is really gone.
Moohahaha.