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Monk player problem

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Re: Monk player problem

Postby torilen » Wednesday November 25th, 2020 10:30am

Cynthia - perhaps, instead of having to surrender the pressure point cards, those cards could be
specific to creature types - goblins, orcs, firmir, humans, etc. The monk would be allowed to
choose only one to start, and then could choose another a few quests along. I know that
really changes the system - like some of the homebrew rules others have proposed - but it
would work better, because, as you say, everyone has pressure points.

Alternatively, the pressure point rules could be a mostly separate errata piece to go along with
HQ. Those pressure point options would come from ancient scrolls found within certain
quests, which would be outlined in the separate writing. Roll a red die to determine which
one would be found, but the piece would say which quest in which they are found, and
even perhaps which room.

Again, this adds complexity to the game, but honestly, just attempting to have a monk character
in HQ is adding complexity, anyhow. No getting around that.

Kurgan - this could be a whole different kind of monk...Friar. Certainly would fit better into HQ than
the martial arts character would.


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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday November 25th, 2020 9:58pm

Yeah, the Western/European style Monk is what I had in mind, but then again we've got the Japanese Game System, so the world of Hero Quest can extend around the globe with other cultures and technologies and styles of things. Let your imagination run wild! Everybody else is using HEMA. |_P
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Super Saiyan Musashi » Sunday November 29th, 2020 1:27pm

I could see an Eastern Monk as having 2 attack dice with no weapons (advantageous in situations where heroes are captured and need to find their gear), and expandable to 3-4 either with mock "Level ups" or with Monk specific weapons like claws and knucks.
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Kurgan » Sunday November 29th, 2020 3:00pm

I imagine we're all thinking of warrior monks and those who fight for a just cause.

But what about a true pacifist character? I guess you'd have to have some explanation why he is on a combat mission. But maybe he can't fight, only escape and act as a support character? Now you can finally get that character who carries two shields! Then again, what if he's the last one left and he has to fight? Perhaps he lose 1 Mind Point every time he attacks, due to going against his code? So only for true emergencies... another idea, perhaps he has a code against killing, and so must make an offering for any enemies he kills, between quests?

Monks may be especially learned, perhaps they have some special skill when it comes to using or creating texts (Spell Scrolls are more powerful in their hands? Or they can find items on bookshelves or Sorcerer's Tables that others cannot?).

Or maybe they are musical (see BARD type abilities, buffing "songs" and so forth). Maybe a Monk carries holy items that are especially helpful against the Undead, Liches, Vampires or Demons...? Perhaps these types of enemies don't affect his "code vs. killing" (if he has one)?

Maybe the Monk has taken a vow of poverty, and so much donate his Treasure or something? Maybe he can't carry fancy equipment (must give it away)?

Perhaps in between Quests he can visit a monastery or chapel that lets him replenish or borrow useful items open to himself, maybe enhance some of his own abilities, after the appropriate donation.

There are many creative things you could do here. I used to think the Monk was a dumb idea, but once you got me thinking I think there is real potential here for an interesting role.
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Zull Rogar » Monday November 30th, 2020 8:04am

You can leave the monk on low and add dodge. One type of defense equates to the defense of the dark company, 1 shield on the die cancels the entire attack.
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Davane » Monday November 30th, 2020 3:42pm

Defence is defence, and it really depends on how you style it. It also depends on any other abilities you give the character.

I'd consider allowing the Monk to defend with any Shield (White and Black), so they are harder to hit. I would also consider adding some kind of special ability if the Monk rolls a Black Shield. Maybe a Black Shield allows the Monk to move into an adjacent free square or gets to make a free attack with damage equal to the number of Black Shields rolled?

Of course, maybe the Monk could be looked at in another way? Rather than giving the Monk extra defence, it can turn the Monsters' attacks against them? For example, maybe whenever a Monster attacking the Monk rolls any Black Shields, the Monk gets to choose a single adjacent monster, possibly including the attacking monster, to be attacked for damage equal to the number of Black Shields rolled. Thus, a Monk can use high Attack Die monsters against themselves or other foes, but only at the risk of putting themselves in danger.

A Monk is a good way to play with the basic mechanics of combat and to change the odds a bit. It's unlikely that the Monk will be able to use a lot of weapons and armour, so the Monk will need something different for Combat.
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby cynthialee » Monday November 30th, 2020 6:05pm

didn't I already suggest that one?

:)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Malcadon » Tuesday December 1st, 2020 1:59am

Yeah, the Monk is an odd fit for HeroQuest. (And by "Monk" I assume we mean the Shaolin-styled Monk from D&D and not Friar Tuck, as that would be comically off-topic )

The Fung-Fu Monk would be an over-powered Hero option, as one would be able to take down the toughest opponents without too much effort — without weapons no less — and would be too heard to hit. On the other hand, they are no known for being treasure hunters or being weigh him down by material things. They may take a quest MacGuffin or an artifact straight from Journey to the West, but they are not known for carrying a large sack of coins and a shinny sword. Their main goal as an archetype is an eastern knight-errant with the "...and the fiends we made along the way" and "journey to find oneself" tropes in play.

Now, this set of rules I just though about off the fly. It is front-loaded with six spacial rules that makes it OP out the gate. This Monk's Attack Dice can stay low (1 or 2) as it only needs one hit to ruin a monster's day. Instead of harming, or killing monsters outright, this Monk can cripple monsters long enough for other Heroes to go in the offense or prevent retreat. Along with its mobility and attack reach, this Hero is given a Support "debuffer" role then the Striker role as one might expect. It dose not need too many Body Points (about 4), nor more Defense Dice that usual, as it only takes one BP per attack (including traps, spells and other harm). As such, Artifacts only need to give this Monk an extra Attack or Defense Die to make it a even more powerful. Although, Artifacts for this type of Monk should enhance the Hero in some way, like allowing it to make range attacks (like a magic fan that works like a Tempest spell) or never trigger traps (after much searching, you found the wires and rigging from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon).

The main downside is the Monk's inability to take gold or buy items — although it should still be able to use potions — and its inability to kill monsters, which can be a liability if all of the other Heroes are dead.

So what do you think of this?

Character Card Blurb
The Monk
The way of the Monk is like water: A clam stream that flows around the rocks... And a violent torrent that levels whole mountains!
The Monk needs no weapon as his body is a finely wrought weapon.
The Monk needs no armor as his opponent's size and strength are their own liability.
The Monk needs no gold as treasure will only weigh him down — physically and spiritually.


Spacial Rules
Like the Wind!
The Monk can moves through squares occupied by monsters. The Monk can also avoid traps by rolling anything but a Black Shield, and can keep moving as long as the trap was not triggered and the Monk still has movement left.

Like the Water!
When defending, the Monk only needs to roll one white shield to block all damage. Likewise, the Monk will only take one Body Point of Damage in a single attack, including spells and traps.

Like the Storm!
Due to the style of his attack, the Monk can attack diagonally. If the Monk can score a single hit on an opponent, instead of taking damage, it will ether be rendered stunned (cannot preform an action) or immobile (cannot move) on its next turn. The player can choose which effect takes place by placing a Stunned or Immobile tile under the monster's base.


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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Oftkilted » Tuesday December 1st, 2020 2:15am

It has no end game.

There are no options for character progression to get better equipment.

There is no “incentive” for a monk to actually be adventuring. They can use no equipment, wield no weapons. They basically don’t trigger traps, and have an infinite number of artifact potions allowing them to bypass enemy models.

They automatically get diagonal attacks. They don’t take normal damage from traps (and there are many traps that would give 3 points of damage.) and they get an infinite number of casts of the Wizard stun spell.

Can you explain to me why you wouldn’t just have a whole party of monks, given this apparent power level?
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Re: Monk player problem

Postby Davane » Tuesday December 1st, 2020 5:34am

Sometimes, the only motivation needed to adventure is that the player wants to play. For that, you need an enjoyable character AND an enjoyable storyline.

Monks aren't known for adventuring for riches, but they are known to be lawful crusaders, and this gives them a motivation, and an end game - completing adventures.

That said, Malcadon's Monk suggestion is way overpowered, and seems to have been designed as an end game in of itself, so one obvious answer seems to be to break down that end game into abilities, and then have the Monk learn those abilities as the game progresses, pretty much as other characters would gain equipment.

It seems like each of the Monk's abilities are actually two abilities combined, so that gives a total of six abilities in total. You can potentially allow the Monk to start with one ability, and can learn the others over time. For ease, you could consider them Tier 1 and Tier 2 abilities, with the Tier 1 abilities costing 250 gold coins each, and the Tier 2 abilities costing 500 gold coins each, but requiring the previous Tier 1 ability first. Having the Monk start with a single Tier 1 ability doesn't seem so OP.

So we see chains as follows:

Move through Monsters --> Ignore Traps
Superior Defence --> Damage Reduction
Diagonal Attack --> Stunning Blow

Ultimately, this version of the Monk would max out after 2000 gold coins, which is certainly doable over the main Game System, and equivalent length Quest Packs.

cynthialee wrote:didn't I already suggest that one?

:)


I see that you did, though I didn't actually read that suggestion first. Great minds think alike, as they say...
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