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Need some opinions...

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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Saturday March 31st, 2018 6:13pm

Gold Bearer wrote:Let me know how death strike works out for, and dodging as well if you do decide to give it a try. |_P



Yep I'm going to play a game with your version tonight with my wife. I'm going to try the 0* version of dodging first. Anyways I'll give you an update later tonight.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Saturday March 31st, 2018 8:27pm

Okay so I played adventure 13 of the main game with your version of the assassin. I took along the barb and wizard who were both pretty well geared since I had also played adventures 1-13 already. He was able to death strike 1 monster which was a fimir. Otherwise I think he may have killed a goblin. He was definitely the weak link of the group. The wizard killed more monsters with his Wizard's Staff than the assassin. As I expected he missed A LOT with one die. It became a bit frustrating after a while especially since the only monsters that death strike is useful on is monsters with more than 1 BP. The barb was rolling 4 dice with his great sword (expanded armory) and, like I mentioned before, the wizard was rolling 2 dice. So I really think if you're going to use this death strike ability then you should allow the assassin to convert the black shield to 2 skulls. After all I did roll several black shields throughout the game where that would've been useful. Outside of that, I think the 1st and 3rd versions of the assassin/rogue heroes that I listed would be better.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 8:47am

No I think I'll definitely stick with a deathstrike mechanic because I prefer black shield hits to signify strength. You were using a base assassin with other more experienced heroes so he should have been the weakest, if he wasn't he'd be overpowered. Also depends on the monsters, he can take out ogres with one hit.

When I said one dice is better for a deathstrike I didn't mean one dice was better than two, you're still better off with more dice most of the time. With two dice you stand a one in four chance of a deathstrike but also only a one in four chance of missing. Deathstrike is useless against targets with less than 3BP if you're using two attack dice though because two undefended skulls would cause two damage anyway and three attack dice deathstrikes only apply to targets with at least 4BP, etc, so what I might do is buff it slightly so it's:-

If you wound an opponent without rolling any white shields on your attack roll then you kill the target outright.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 9:42am

I agree that death strike is only useful when rolling 1 dice otherwise, as you pointed out, is rather pointless. He just needs a better chance to hit. He was failing that 50% chance to roll a skull more often than not. And since 1 die is all he will ever roll he won't get stronger so I'm not sure what you mean there. I'm playing the base vanilla game. Anyways I'm not understanding your buff. The only way you can wound a target is by rolling a skull. A white shield is of course a miss. So I'm not sure I get it. Sorry I get easily confused. :)

P.S. by the way, the dodge skill worked quite well. He always just rolled a number of defense dice based on many skulls were rolled against him. Worked well.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby knightkrawler » Sunday April 1st, 2018 10:11am

Jazzdrummer wrote:He was failing that 50% chance to roll a skull more often than not.


He will have failed as often than not after a high enough number of attempts, mathematically.
This is what the combat dice are there for, is it not? We know that.
Tweaking this is where the pointlessness is.

The Wizard has one attack die for a very specific reason. He is weak in battle and supposed to think for one freakin' second before he does it instead of using one of his spells, which are his real talent.
One attack die should have no other purpose than that.
To me, a one-die-attack comes from being a battle wuss and having only a dagger. Which you can throw if you want to, so there is no real-and-pure one-die-attack at all.

What I'm trying to say is, it's a bad idea to limit attack dice too much, as it is an even worse idea to limit defense dice too much. Ideas in that direction have been given to my chagrin here, too.

To make this post a tad constructive:
The four original heroes are four types of talent/combat/health combinations. Introducing a new character for me means to think about which of these four types they replace.
The Assassin could fit anywhere, really.
He could be a Barbarian/Fighter type that has a base bonus on combat dice with throwing and shooting weapons and the chance to make a poison to get that bonus even in close combat. No plate armor.
He could be a Dwarf/Dungeoneer type with a general rule change that can search in the presence of monsters or use two different one-handed weapons for two attack each round or.. or...
He could be an Elf/Ranger type with some knowledge in some mystic art that you can write three one-off offensive skills for to be used like spells and some other small advantage like making one diagonal move between two monsters per turn.
He could be a full-blown Wizard/Monk type with nine such one-off skills with the option to brew potent offensive poisons that enhance his attacks in specific situations.
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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 10:25am

I meant he should use more than one attack dice because the greater chance of scoring a deathstrike isn't worth the greater chance to miss, unless you're attacking something like an ogre.

I actually confused myself. I was thinking that a deathskrike when rolling two attack dice is pointless unless the target has at least 3BP because you have to score two skulls so you're going to do at least two points of damage but I of course it's not pointless again a 2BP target because they could defend one skull but not the other and the deathskrike will kill them.

The buff is really simple, you still do a deathstrike if you roll black shields on the attack roll (they still don't count as hits), as long as no white shields are rolled. But I'm not sure it's needed now, rolling all skulls on the attack and the target not defending all of them should be enough. It's an instakill so it shouldn't be too easy to do. I might use the buff as an improved version for the level up.

This really needs to be tested properly to see how well it works, something I haven't done. Against the right monsters (US ogres are the prime example) it should be extremely effective. He can use one handed weapons so he can attack with three or four dice, the deathstrike is really just an occasional bonus but you can take a gamble and make it more likely to happen at the cost of making a miss more likely as well, I still really like it.

Jazzdrummer wrote:P.S. by the way, the dodge skill worked quite well. He always just rolled a number of defense dice based on many skulls were rolled against him. Worked well.
Good. I still think he needs the standard defence roll to go with it though. Not being able to use a shield, helmet or standard armour is a big restriction that compensates for the dodge, losing the standard defence role completely will be too much I think later on in the game. He can use light armour to give himself two defence dice plus the dodge, other heroes can have up to five standard defence dice (more if they don't mind losing movement) so the dodge really isn't enough on its own.

I think it should maybe include ranged (not magic though) attacks as well, I might put it in as a leveled up improvement.

knightkrawler wrote:
Jazzdrummer wrote:He was failing that 50% chance to roll a skull more often than not.
He will have failed as often than not after a high enough number of attempts, mathematically.
This is what the combat dice are there for, is it not? We know that.
Tweaking this is where the pointlessness is.

The Wizard has one attack die for a very specific reason. He is weak in battle and supposed to think for one freakin' second before he does it instead of using one of his spells, which are his real talent.
One attack die should have no other purpose than that.
To me, a one-die-attack comes from being a battle wuss and having only a dagger. Which you can throw if you want to, so there is no real-and-pure one-die-attack at all.

What I'm trying to say is, it's a bad idea to limit attack dice too much, as it is an even worse idea to limit defense dice too much. Ideas in that direction have been given to my chagrin here, too.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this post. Using low attack dice with the chance to instakill with the less powerful attacks being more likely to kill and using low defence dice with the chance to evade the attack with more powerful attacks being easier to evade creates an interesting and specialised hero that fits perfectly with the assassin class.

knightkrawler wrote:To make this post a tad constructive:
The four original heroes are four types of talent/combat/health combinations. Introducing a new character for me means to think about which of these four types they replace.
Treating new heroes as replacements for the original ones entirely defeats the purpose of making new heroes in my opinion. Some will obviously be able to fit those roles but they should also bring something different.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby knightkrawler » Sunday April 1st, 2018 10:33am

Gold Bearer wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:To make this post a tad constructive:
The four original heroes are four types of talent/combat/health combinations. Introducing a new character for me means to think about which of these four types they replace.

Treating new heroes as replacements for the original ones entirely defeats the purpose of making new heroes in my opinion. Some will obviously be able to fit those roles but they should also bring something different.


Well, my philosophy in these regards don't belong in this thread. Right now, revising HQHV, I came to the conclusion that I only want the four basic heroes.
All other specifics are offered as buyable advancements. Instakills, search combos, all that kind of stuff...

But "bring something different" will almost always be one of the basic specifics that the original heroes have.
Fighting advantages - General rule exceptions - some one-off skills plus flexibility - a lot of one-off skills.
Weighting a new character almost invariably makes him fit into one of the four basic hero templates, is what I meant.
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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 12:21pm

This should work nicely, evade sounds better than dodge, especially with evade and counter. I just had to incorporate the hidden blade, I'll add it to the armoury for two attacks. If you're using experienced heroes then he should at least be a Veteran. I hope you decide to give it another crack Jazzdrummer, let me know if you do.

Assassin
Race: Human. Class: Assassin. Equipment: Five Knives, Hidden Blade.
Move :roll6: :roll6: :roll6: - Uses the highest two.
Attack :skull: *
Defense :whiteshield: *
Body :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart:
Mind :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb:

  • When you're attacked in melee roll a dice for every skull the attacker rolled before you defend, if any of them are white shields you Evade the attack.

  • You land a Deathstrike that kills the target outright if all the attacking dice were skulls and you wound the target.

  • You can attack a directly adjacent target with the Hidden Blade using one attack dice and counting a black shield as a hit but not a Deathsrike.

  • You fail a jump on a black shield instead of a skull.

  • You are unable to use two handed melee weapons or any type of shield or helmet and can only wear light armour.
Veteran
  • You can throw two Knives if you don't move.
  • You can Evade throwing attacks.
  • You can Deathstrike with throwing attacks.
  • If you successfully Evade a melee attack and all of the dice on the Evade roll are white shields you immediately make a Counter Attack, the attacker defends against a hit equal to the number of white shields on the Evade roll.
Master
  • You can throw two knives if you move no more than half rate.
  • You can Evade ranged attacks.
  • You can Deathstrike with ranged attacks.
  • If you successfully Evade a melee attack and none of the dice on the Evade roll are skulls you immediately make a Counter Attack, the attacker defends against a hit equal to the number of white shields on the Evade roll, the Counter Attack is Deathstrike if all of the dice on the Evade roll were white shields.
Legend
  • You can throw three Knives if you don't move.
  • You successfully Evade if no skulls are rolled on the Evasion role.
  • You cause a potential Deathstrike whenever an attack wounds the target and no white shields were rolled on the attack role.
  • If you successfully Evade a melee attack and none of the dice on the Evade roll are black shields you immediately make a Counter Attack, the attacker defends against a hit equal to the number of white shields on the Evade roll, the Counter Attack is Deathstrike.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 12:40pm

Very nice Gold Bearer. I will be playing the last adventure of the base game today with my wife. I'll take this guy out for a spin. Thanks again for all the back and forth. Great stuff. I love exchanging ideas. :) So this assassin can use say a broad sword? But I wonder...should I use a broad sword so I have a steady stream of 3 dice to roll OR stick with a short sword where the death strike will kick in more often? Not sure. Quick question: What determines their level? I haven't been using that but the idea sounds very cool. Do the heroes simply level up after so many adventures?


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday April 1st, 2018 12:50pm

Jazzdrummer wrote:Very nice Gold Bearer. I will be playing the last adventure of the base game today with my wife. I'll take this guy out for a spin.
Awesome! :D

Jazzdrummer wrote:Thanks again for all the back and forth. Great stuff. I love exchanging ideas. :)
Me too. |_P

Jazzdrummer wrote:Quick question: What determines their level? I haven't been using that but the idea sounds very cool. Do the heroes simply level up after so many adventures?
Yea after however many adventures a hero has completed, makes hero death mean more.

Using the official EU quests as an example and if a hero survives all the quests: Veterans after the base game, Masters after KK and RotWL, Legends after AtOH, WoM and The Death Company, ready for harder custom quests.
:goblin: 1BP, :orc: 2BP, :fimir: 3BP, :skeleton: 1BP, :zombie: 2BP, :mummy: 3BP, :chaoswarrior: 4BP, :gargoyle: 5BP. US :chaoswarrior: 3BP, US :gargoyle: 4BP.

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