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Need some opinions...

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Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Tuesday March 20th, 2018 11:59pm

I'm trying to pick between two heroes that basically serve a similar role. So I'm looking for thoughts and opinions on which, if any, is overpowered. I know balance with custom heroes is a tricky thing but I just can't seem to tell one way or the other. So an outside perspective would be appreciated. Here they are:

Thief

Body: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart:
Mind: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb:
Attack: :skull:
Defend: :whiteshield: :whiteshield:
Move: :roll2: :roll2:

Starting Weapon: Dagger
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear armor or use two-handed weapons

Abilities:
1. Starts with a Toolkit
2. Backstab - When attacking a monster that is also adjacent to another hero any :blackshield: rolled count as skulls
3. Avoids damage from hazards by rolling anything but a :skull:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assassin

Body: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart:
Mind: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb:
Attack: :skull: :skull:
Defend: :whiteshield: :whiteshield:
Move: :roll2: :roll2:

Starting Weapon: Short Sword
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear plate armor or use two-handed weapons

Abilities:
1. Dual Wield - Can use a dagger in the OH that adds 1 :whiteshield:
2. Assassin's Strike - When attacking with your MH weapon, if a :blackshield: is rolled you may make a bonus attack with your dagger that is unblockable.


There you have it. Which one seems the most balanced compared to the other heroes? What changes should be made if any? Thanks.
Last edited by Jazzdrummer on Tuesday April 3rd, 2018 8:46am, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby DullandRusty » Wednesday March 21st, 2018 12:07am

are the skills a one time use like a spell? it makes a huge difference in my opinion with balance/imbalance if the skill can be used every turn.
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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Wednesday March 21st, 2018 12:16am

The skills can be used every turn.
Last edited by Jazzdrummer on Tuesday April 3rd, 2018 8:47am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby mitchiemasha » Wednesday March 21st, 2018 2:28am

They're both missing either a mind point or body point. or do you remove that as they have an extra skill?

I'm not a fan of Black Shield being positive for a Hero, unless themed due to Chaos Armour or similar. I do use Backstab, it's a feature of a weapon, Hidden Blade! 3Ad6 if sneaking. Sneak is complex won't derail thread with explanation. Of course, Hidden Blade is Equipped off hand.

A good Thief skill is 'Search in presence of monsters'.
A good Assassins Skill 'Throw daggers for free, not an action'. This would be 1 to start, then 2 once buying another, if both equipped. When the Assassin purchases a bandoleer, knifes equipped off hand, max 4, the Assassin can now throw 4 daggers in 1 turn. it's not too OP as they only do 1d6 anyways.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Wednesday March 21st, 2018 8:08am

mitchiemasha wrote:They're both missing either a mind point or body point. or do you remove that as they have an extra skill?

I'm not a fan of Black Shield being positive for a Hero, unless themed due to Chaos Armour or similar. I do use Backstab, it's a feature of a weapon, Hidden Blade! 3Ad6 if sneaking. Sneak is complex won't derail thread with explanation. Of course, Hidden Blade is Equipped off hand.

A good Thief skill is 'Search in presence of monsters'.
A good Assassins Skill 'Throw daggers for free, not an action'. This would be 1 to start, then 2 once buying another, if both equipped. When the Assassin purchases a bandoleer, knifes equipped off hand, max 4, the Assassin can now throw 4 daggers in 1 turn. it's not too OP as they only do 1d6 anyways.


I did remove 1 body point thinking it would balance things a bit. Anyways I appreciate the feedback. I would love to hear your sneak idea and hidden blade idea. I've been trying to figure out a backstab type of ability for long time now as have others I would think.


EDIT: Hey I found your rules for creating characters which including the rules for sneaking and hidden blade. I love the ideas here man. So let make sure I understand your sneak rules and hidden blade:

I.E. It's my assassin's turn and he decides to use sneak. (I assume he needs to start this outside of a monsters LoS?) He would then sacrifice one of his movement dice to instead roll a mind test. Let's say he has a mind of 5 in this example. He rolls a :roll3: ! Success! With a mind value of 5 does he succeed on a 5 or lower or does it have to be below 5? Anyways he now can use his last movement dice to move in stealth. He sneaks into a room with 2 :fimir: . His movement is over and he now has an action step left. From here he could either attack with hidden blade rolling :skull: :skull: :skull: dice or do nothing. Let's say he decides to just wait in the shadows and do nothing. On Zargon's turn both :fimir: would get to make a mind test roll to see if they discover my assassin. If either pass their mind test they immediately discover the assassin and attack otherwise they do nothing and the turn passes to the next hero.

Does all that sound right? Hidden Blade does no damage at all unless sneaking correct?


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby mitchiemasha » Thursday March 22nd, 2018 12:13am

Yes that would work... A few specifics due to how we play other parts. When you move to roll there's no need to reroll the mind check. The movement dice will already dictate if you can sneak. This makes things a bit faster, simply discard 1d6 if it's value permits. It works the same for the other unique skills.

The assassins blade gets 3Ad6 only when sneaking, back stab. The Assassin could use his standard attack, which won't be any of the larger more powerful weapons. The hidden blade is the strongest weapon that doesn't have body restrictions (my way of working in 'may not be used by wizard' as their are many other characters, that you won't give weapons skill too). You need to give the Assassin high mind, which makes low body, in order to make him good at sneaking.

The d6 needs to be lower, not the same as and lower.

There's a lot hidden under the surface to why things are the way they are. It all interlink to make everything work. I still need to figure out the -1M and -1Md6, Mind and Move d6 are too similar. I think people can, might easily confuse these. Knightcrawler suggested symbols.

Rolling the Mind Check for each Firmir... Originally it's done one at a time. If one fails that's his turn over. If the room is active, it can move attack another Hero. If the 2nd one passes, the 1st doesn't get to attack the Assasin, it's already had it's move. I'd be OK to play it as you put, that might speed things up. Roll Mind for all, if one passes all can move and attack. It does weaken the sneak. Doing it the original way, a good EW, should roll for the highest Mind character first, if they figure that out!!!
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Thursday March 22nd, 2018 12:18am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby mitchiemasha » Thursday March 22nd, 2018 12:16am

Jazzdrummer wrote:I assume he needs to start this outside of a monsters LoS?

Not necessarily, he could disappear into the shadows quite easily during his move. It's up to you how you'd play it.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Thursday March 22nd, 2018 12:22am

Here's a different take on the Thief that uses a stealth concept that I got from another guy here on the forums:

Thief

Body :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart: :redheart:
Mind :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb: :blueorb:
Attack :skull:
Defend :whiteshield: :whiteshield:
Move :roll6: :roll6:

Starting Weapon: Dagger
Starting Armor: None
Restrictions: Can not wear armor. Can use only daggers and short swords. (If using expanded armory, sling, short bow, and rapier would be allowed)

Abilities
1. Stealth - If no enemies are in sight, may use stealth but must roll one less movement die. If a monster appears in your LoS you must roll a die at the end of your movement. If a black shield is rolled you are discovered, otherwise you remain undetected. While in stealth, you may only do free actions otherwise stealth is cancelled. As long as monsters are in view you must continue to roll a die every turn at the end of your movement to maintain stealth even if you don't move. If you attack an adjacent monster from stealth, the monster rolls no defense dice. Afterwards, regardless of outcome, you are detected.
2. When searching draw 2 cards and discard one of them.

I think this is a pretty balanced thief character.
Last edited by Jazzdrummer on Thursday March 22nd, 2018 2:56pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby mitchiemasha » Thursday March 22nd, 2018 3:50am

I like it but it posses questions. "if no enemies are in sight", who's sight, his or theirs? Shouldn't it be theirs?

How about. 'May use stealth but must roll one less move die. If you are in or enter into a monsters LoS roll a Cd6. If a black shield is rolled you are discovered, otherwise you remain undetected.'

It does have the issue of all monsters being equally avoidable. Where as some should be easy to fool and others not. It does fix the issue on mine of how to handle undead, when sneaking.

Naturally... The reason why i use the term 'sneaking' instead of 'stealth' is from my obsession of The Lord of the Rings as a kid, way before the actual movie.


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Re: Need some opinions...

Postby Jazzdrummer » Thursday March 22nd, 2018 10:47am

mitchiemasha wrote:I like it but it posses questions. "if no enemies are in sight", who's sight, his or theirs? Shouldn't it be theirs?

How about. 'May use stealth but must roll one less move die. If you are in or enter into a monsters LoS roll a Cd6. If a black shield is rolled you are discovered, otherwise you remain undetected.'

It does have the issue of all monsters being equally avoidable. Where as some should be easy to fool and others not. It does fix the issue on mine of how to handle undead, when sneaking.

Naturally... The reason why i use the term 'sneaking' instead of 'stealth' is from my obsession of The Lord of the Rings as a kid, way before the actual movie.


Well I assume if the thief can see the monsters they can, in turn, see him as well. So it's both I would think. I mean is there an instance where the monsters would see the thief but the thief can't see the monsters? If there is then I agree it should be based on what the monsters see.

It is a simpler version of sneaking compared to yours that favors the thief which I think is good. You could make it that he fails if he rolls a :whiteshield: instead to make stealth riskier. Since he has to initiate sneaking out of line sight he won't get a chance to backstab that often which I like. He's never going to roll anything higher than 2 combat dice. The backstab allows him to possibly do 2 damage that is unblockable. Of course he still to pass a detection roll by NOT rolling a :blackshield: first.

Here's an example: The thief is standing outside a door with the rest of party further away out of LoS. It's the thief's turn and he announces that he is going to use stealth. He rolls 1 movement die and gets a :roll4: . He moves 4 spaces into the room where there are 2 :orc: . He rolls a detection check by rolling one die per monster and gets a :skull: and a :whiteshield: . He succeeds and the 2 :orc: don't notice him. He may then forfeit his action or backstab one of the :orc: if adjacent . If he backstabs an orc, he would roll :skull: or :skull: :skull: depending on whether he's using a dagger or shortsword/rapier and any skulls rolled would be an unblockable hit. At that point the thief is detected, the door opens, and the room becomes active. If the thief decides to forfeit his action then nothing happens and the next player takes their turn. On the thief's next turn, if monsters are in LoS, he would have to roll an additional detection check at the end of movement to maintain stealth if so desired. Even if the thief decides not to move, he would still have to roll a detection roll.

I think this version of a thief is very similar to the 1st ed. D&D thief.

Other ideas for backstab:
1. Thief does 1 unblockable damage. No roll required.
2. Thief gains an extra 1 die to roll for the attack. Monster can roll defense as usual.

Other ideas for stealth:
1. If the monsters are engaged with the other party members maybe only roll 1 die for the detection roll, regardless of how many monsters there are, since they would be considered distracted.
2. Allow the thief to search for treasures in the presence of monsters while in stealth.


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