Improving Orc's Bane

[cynthialee]

Thank you very much. That chart just got saved into my HQ file and will be printed out soon for my use in making dungeons.
Useful for more than just orks.

When we play and someone has orks bane, the player is never really excited about owning the weapon until they see an ork. Then they are all 'I got this'.

And it doesn't show up in time to make a real difference if you play by the book storyline. Another reason to change the placement of the artifacts in the storyline.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

And on that final note I would appreciate any suggestions about where to relocate Orcs' Bane earlier in the Quest sequence and also what artefacts to use to replace the spell caster specific ones without unbalancing the future quests, some initial thoughts for new Artefacts;

• Xena's Chakram or Disc of Return - 2CD both close combat and ranged, but returns automatically when thrown.
• Thunder Hammer - Can be wielded by the Barbarian only (Dwarf?), Warhammer, 4 attack dice, when thrown it returns to hand and it never misses so if no skulls are rolled then roll them all again
• Dragon Hide Cloak - Fire Resistance - allows the wearer to ignore the effects of fireball and similar attacks and can even pass through fire without losing BPs
• Poison Wind Globe or Vial - choking gas effects like tear gas...
• Death Mould - black mould found on bones, if inhaled has very nasty and fatal effects (in fact fatal then afterwards very nasty!)
• Mask - as in 'The Mask' hard to remove addictive - loss of Mind Points - eventually enslaved - cause fear?
• Amulet of Ankh - each time you are wounded by an attack from the Undead the amulet glows and restores one BP
• Soul catcher - when you are killed instantly the soul catcher retains your soul. It can be broken by a colleague and your soul restored to you and you are raised back to life with only 1 BP
• Serpent arrow - single use only - provided the initial strike causes damage then on the next turn the arrow transforms into a viper - roll 2 combat dice if both black shields then it dies (removed) other lose a BP for each skull.
• Leprechaun's Ring - Once per quest you can clench your fist, kiss the ring then throw a handful of gold coins at your opponents who will waste their next turn trying to recover the coins (no death zones) - the coins disappear once you are out of sight
• Poison Arrow - Goblins - Spider Venom - paralysis
• Sandman's Pouch - once per quest can empty the sand from the pouch and blow it, which puts all monsters on the board to sleep for D6 turns. Pouch recharges between quests.
• Sure-footed boots - re roll falls, jumps and similar
• Quicksand, nothing to do with artefacts but nice touch for a hazard!
• Orb of Light - dazzle all opponents, once per quest
• Girdle of Might +1CD increased strength

Any thoughts?

[Gold Bearer]

How do these numbers stack up against my Champion Orks? (Defend on White Shields.)
And my Warlord Orc? (Defends on all shields.)

You could always play that armour is ineffective when attacking orcs (all orcs defend with black shields on two dice, or just all orcs defend with black shields). That doesn't change the established rules for it, it just adds to them.

Here's the full table of everything:


In case you don't want to read all that, basically the Orc's Bane is less effective against custom Orcs with better defense than the standard "two white dice", but usually lies between the Broadsword and the Battle Axe in terms of effectiveness at slaying one monster. It also carries two strategic advantages: the ability to use a shield alongside it and the ability to attack a second Orc if you slay one with your first blow.

That chart's wrong. Just at a quick glance, why is orc's bane more effective than a battle axe against a six defence dice orc warlord and why are the broadsword and battleaxe the same against a two defence dice warlord?

So I think the odds of orc's bane killing an orc are the same as a battle axe killing a zombie.

I think this is wrong though. It would only work if the chances of surviving each attack were 50%.

Any thoughts?

Some of those seem overpowered for the standard quests.

[Anderas]

That chart's wrong. Just at a quick glance, why is orc's bane more effective than a battle axe against a six defence dice orc warlord and why are the broadsword and battleaxe the same against a two defence dice warlord?

It's not wrong, you just didn't read it right.
Orc's Bane has a higher propability to deal ZERO Body Points to a 6 Defense dice Orc Warlord. I wouldn't call that better.

[Gold Bearer]

Yeap. I should have read it properly.

I'd round up all the numbers though so you don't get a 0% chance of something that is possible.

Edit:
...Or replace the 0%s with N/A when it actually is impossible.

[Count Mohawk]

And on that final note I would appreciate any suggestions about where to relocate Orcs' Bane earlier in the Quest sequence and also what artefacts to use to replace the spell caster specific ones without unbalancing the future quests, some initial thoughts for new Artefacts;

There are four Artifacts in the base system related to the Wizard or to spellcasting: the Wizard's Cloak, the Wizard's Staff, the Wand of Recall / Wand of Magic, and the Spell Ring. If you remove the magic from the game, you'll want to replace them with roughly equivalent counterparts for the brawlers. I personally would recommend one that increases movement speed (either by 2-3 points or by one whole die), one that increases defense (i.e. a more powerful armor or one with a special effect) and two weapons with useful abilities. I don't have the time to critique your list at the mo but I'm sure I'll come back to the topic later.

[Gold Bearer]

Another way to interpret the rule to make it more powerful is to allow it to attack twice if either target is an orc, so you get a free attack against an orc basically. Combine that a the attack-move-attack option and the fact that it can be used with a shield and it becomes very powerful in orc themed quests.

It's because there's only a one in six chance of rolling a black shield but 50% of rolling a skull.

Also the orc doesn't actually get a two extra defence dice, they only get it if they survive the first attack so it's equivalent to one extra defense dice.

So I think the odds of orc's bane killing an orc are the same as a battle axe killing a zombie.

Actually I think I was right the first time. It doesn't matter if it's a 50% chance of surviving the attacks as long as both attacks are the same. Mohawk?

[Count Mohawk]

It's because there's only a one in six chance of rolling a black shield but 50% of rolling a skull.

Also the orc doesn't actually get a two extra defend dice, they only get it if they survive the first attack so it's equivalent to one extra defense dice.

So I think the odds of orc's bane killing an orc are the same as a battle axe killing a zombie.

Actually I think I was right the first time. It doesn't matter if it's a 50% chance of surviving the attacks as long as both attacks are the same. Mohawk?

The battle axe will kill a zombie about 80% of the time. Orc's Bane will kill an orc 83% of the time. Close, but not quite; in fact even the battle axe vs Orc scenario is closer. The fact that the Orc dies on the first swing with probability 59% rather than 50% is relevant, as that means the Orc will only survive to get its bonus defend dice 41% of the time, which would translate to 0.82 extra defend dice rolled. (The math doesn't really support that sort of dice addition, but it does work for small-scale approximations like this one.)

There is, however, a 59% chance it kills it on the first swing and can then try against a second orc. So the net danger from Orc's Bane vs a room of Orcs is 2 x 59% x 59% (kills two orcs) + 59% x 41% (kills the first orc but misses the second) + 41% x 59% (misses the first orc the first time but kills it the second time) = 1.18 orcs dead per attack phase.

[Daedalus]

Roll to attack adjacent targets.
If you attack only Orcs or Goblins, you get one additional attack action for this turn.

Artifact

I like the wording and ability. Good fix.

And on that final note I would appreciate any suggestions about where to relocate Orcs' Bane earlier in the Quest sequence and also what artefacts to use to replace the spell caster specific ones without unbalancing the future quests, some initial thoughts for new Artefacts;

....

• Thunder Hammer - Can be wielded by the Barbarian only (Dwarf?), Warhammer, 4 attack dice, when thrown it returns to hand and it never misses so if no skulls are rolled then roll them all again
  ...
• Amulet of Ankh - each time you are wounded by an attack from the Undead the amulet glows and restores one BP
  ...
• Girdle of Might +1CD increased strength

Any thoughts?

I.think most of your ideas should work. I'd delay the hammer and girdle until after many more Quests. They are very powerful and will tend to make the threat of standard green and white monsters irrelevant. The same applies to the amulet concerning white monsters.

You could nerf them instead by limiting their use. The hammer may be thrown once per Quest, the girdle grants it's bonus but is used for the Quest if a skull isn't rolled (separately or instead part of the full attack.) The amulet activates only if a white shield is rolled.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Couple of aspects to this debate upon a few years reflection and play-testing

1. Clarification around the official ‘two attacks’ rule

2. Suggestions for improvement

Clarification around the official ‘two attacks’ aspect

US (my standard) card text for Orc’s Bane states

When using this magical shortsword, you may roll two combat dice to attack.
You may attack twice if attacking an Orc.
May not be used by Wizard.

The first sentence seems obvious and self-explanatory as it is consistent with a normal shortsword, and, in the context of the official rules, the third sentence is clear and consistent
The second sentence is a little more challenging…so bearing in mind that this was part of the artefacts for the original game system

• Bearing in mind that this artefact is introduced as part of the original game system in which a Hero’s attack is directed at one single monster, there may well be a group of monsters on adjacent squares to you that includes none, one or more Orcs but one single attack is directed at one single Monster so either that is an Orc or not an Orc

• Assuming that the Monster you are attacking is an Orc then “you may attack twice”, my assumption being that the second attack would only happen if the Orc was still alive after the first attack (technically you could have a second attack against its corpse but there wouldn’t be too much point…unless it really offended you)

The artefact is often seen as underpowered and I suspect that leads some, deliberately or otherwise, to stretch the possible interpretations of the text to make the artefact more powerful.

Examples

You kill the Orc outright with the first attack and so you feel like you have lost out on your bonus attack, not fair, so why can’t I use the bonus attack to this other Orc that is adjacent to me, its still an Orc, right?

Having let your Hero get away with trying that one on, it soon follows that…

You kill the Orc outright with the first attack and so you feel like you have lost out on your bonus attack, not fair, I don’t have any other Orcs adjacent to me, but I do have a Skeleton, I still get the bonus attack, right, because my first attack was on an Orc?

And then…

You kill the Orc outright with the first attack and so you feel like you have lost out on your bonus attack, not fair, I don’t have any other monsters adjacent to me, but there is an Orc three squares away so surely I can use my movement to reach it and get my bonus attack?

Or combine the two

You kill the Orc outright with the first attack and so you feel like you have lost out on your bonus attack, not fair, I don’t have any other monsters adjacent to me, but there is another monster three steps away so surely I can use my movement to reach it and get my bonus attack as it was an orc that I attacked first, yeah?

Or reaching all the way to the bottom of this slippery slope

You kill the Orc outright with the first attack and so you feel like you have lost out on your bonus attack, not fair, I don’t have any other monsters adjacent to me, neither are there any remotely close enough to move to, so unfair, but I get a bonus action, right, that’s what is says so I can still search, or cast a spell right?

Short answer: No

Slightly longer answer: Still no

If this artefact was expressly allowing you to break the ‘attack then move or move then attack’ rule or to attack two monsters rather than one, or the ‘take one action on your turn rule’ (aside from the second attack) then I would expect it to expressly state that and it doesn’t. Normal rules apply unless a card explicitly makes an exception

For me, to rewrite this card text to remove any possibility for confusion, wilful or otherwise, you could just simply state

When using this magical shortsword, you may roll two combat dice to attack.
You may roll four combat dice when attacking an Orc.
May not be used by Wizard.

The four combat dice is broadly equivalent to two attacks, so equivalent effects but a clearer rule (and avoids the whole ‘but do you only get to defend once against multiple attacks’ argument)

Suggestions for Improvement

To be fair I'm not sure any huge improvements are required, not every artefact needs to be mega-powerful but if you make the change suggested above then you could also consider the following.

Broader range - affects all ‘Greenskins’ – either by invoking the Tolkien justification (as earlier in this thread) or the Warhammer one that has a common origin of Greenskins or even the HeroQuest one which mentions “Orcs are related to Goblins but are larger and much more powerful”, this leaves an open question around Fimir which are not related to Greenskins by any of the above arguments but the figures are green, that one I’ll leave to your own personal viewpoint as I long ago replaced Fimir with Trolls and ruled them as in the Greenskin class. On this point I would also note that an Orc Warlord, Chieftain, Shaman or any other Orc/Goblin named monsters are also susceptible to the effects.

Scrap the anti-Wizard restriction – in my house rules Wizards can use short swords anyway, but whether you go down that route or just change the text so that it states “May be used by Wizard.” then either are consistent.

Note: I know there are those who say that Wizards shouldn’t be allowed to use short swords as they don’t have any martial training but have spent their whole lives training in the academic practice of magic, (although that does make you wonder how they learned the ability to throw the Dagger they come equipped with as a starting weapons) and whilst that may be true for Wizards in general, but our Wizard is a Hero who gets out of the classroom and delves into dungeons and occasionally has to defend himself with weapons, plus what else is he and the Barbarian going to spend their time doing by the campfire when travelling between adventures, discussing the intricacies of elemental magic? I don’t think so, more likely that the Wizard, having barely survived an encounter with a hostile Goblin in the last dungeon, would be practising his sword-play and the Barbarian shaking his head in disbelief, would say “for Crom’s sake, you’re not even holding it right, come here and I'll show you”!

So in conclusion

When using this magical shortsword, you may roll two combat dice to attack.
You may roll four combat dice when attacking Greenskins.
May be used by Wizard.