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Re: Hasbro

Postby bastianbux » August 18th, 2021, 11:48 am

Pancho wrote:I mean you could provide actual evidence of racism or homophobia to the admins if you wanted them to do something. Like an actual quote. Shouldn’t be too difficult if you aren’t imagining things?
Did you see the bit of the thread where a few of us were expressing our disgust that some people are cheapening concepts like racism and homophobia by using these words when you have no cause to? No? Pity.


It's not my job to police the conduct of others. I'm just disappointed that a forum dedicated to celebrating a great game can get to toxic so frequently.

No, I didn't read the bit of the thread you're referring to because the only part I read was the offensive part and then I decided that while I've been a member here for more than a decade, the time had probably come to stop returning when each time I stumble across bigotry.

Also, your condescending tone is unkind and inappropriate.


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Re: Hasbro

Postby Pancho » August 18th, 2021, 3:13 pm

Bastiancux, you have threatened to leave even more times than Shadzar did, with even more histrionics :lol:
I’m thinking that if you genuinely thought this place was all the things you keep saying it is then you would have actually left by now. :roll:
As for unkind and inappropriate, do you mean like casually accusing people of being racist when you have absolutely no cause too? If someone pulls a stunt like that then they have no subsequent right to kindness or being taking seriously.


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Re: Hasbro

Postby Daedalus » August 18th, 2021, 4:02 pm

Please keep the discussion to things Hasbro. If the thread continues to degenerate into squabbling, it will become necessary to lock the topic. Warnings are being given.

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Re: Hasbro

Postby torilen » August 18th, 2021, 6:11 pm

Honestly, I was going to ask...why is this thread still open??

Just saying - :lol:


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Re: Hasbro

Postby iKarith » August 26th, 2021, 8:18 am

cornixt wrote:You don't have to say specifically racist/sexist/homophobic things to make it clear where you stand on those issues, the language you use and the measures you are against are more than enough.


Why does this smack of "you're guilty if I say I FEEL you are guilty, and I don't have to provide proof, examples, or even names. I just get to be offended and therefore I'm right!"

Which is one of the two reasons I cited for my outright rejection of not only intersectional identity politics, but identity politics as a whole. Because there exist just as many "Trumptards" as "Woketards" in my opinion, if you look at group membership of the accused and accuser and decide guilt without evidence, you're part of the problem here in my opinion. I gave a concrete example of how this destroyed one DM's participation in the hobby, not based upon sexual identity, sexual orientation, gender expression, race, ethnicity, or even religion … it was that the dude claimed he was being discriminated against over a previously undisclosed phobia of snakes he had ample opportunities to bring to the DM, and decided not to until he failed a saving throw.

The other thing I may have noted is that intersectional identity politics groups have stated demands for things that cannot possibly be done at the same time. I don't want to get off in the weeds on a good example of that because the best one I have is a recently current events hot button political issue with no good solution for either of the factions involved that I can see. If either group gets their way, the other gets shafted completely.

I subscribe to the "I support your right to use big scary rifles to defend your pot farm from anyone who threatens your property and to wish those two guys next door a happy honeymoon" school of thought. I don't care what anyone's sexuality or sexual identity or gender expression or lack thereof is. I don't care what your skin color is, because if I'm close enough to tell what it is I'm already close enough to get to know the people inside it. I've had friends all across the political spectrum and of half a dozen broad religious affiliations that I know of. People are people. Some of them are *Play-Doh Factories*.


On the earlier topic … I did see some folks I thought stepped out of line. If someone did make fun of one of the artists for being non-binary, I missed that. If I had seen something like that, and if I were a board moderator, I can tell you a person mocking someone for being transgender would get exactly two warnings from me. Depending on how far over the line it went, the first would be in the thread, a "hey, that kind of thing is going to cause some offense. Please don't do that again." The second would be a PM, and would be very direct and to the point. There would be no third warning.

I'm not volunteering for that job even if drathe and Daedalus are offering, though, because of the kind of thing that happened on an IRC channel I was on just about 10 hours ago. An extreme example, but illustrates the point. I'll censor the slur for those who are more sensitive:

--> n****r (~n****r@<a host via tor network>) has joined #debian
<n****r> hi
<n****r> is there anyone?
<tjcarter> this is a tech support channel, not a chat channel, and your nick is one that appears to be deliberately chosen to cause offense
<tjcarter> !ops racial slurs
<dpkg> [list of channel mods to get their attention]: tjcarter complains about a problem (see above)
<n****r> nope
<n****r> this is a test
<tjcarter> you failed.

One of the channel mods promptly banned this loser with the message "you should know better".

Yeah, he came on to our channel via an anonymous tor connection to "test" us? Lots of places with rules and whatnot like to have a policy of warnings and whatnot to avoid "moderator abuse". If moderating is my job, and you're trying to see how close to the line you can get, you've already crossed it.

Believe it or not, I doubt this individual is actually a racist. No, a person who actually was a racist would likely have been a little more subtle about it and generally keep their views to themselves because of the social stigma. Such people, if approached carefully, can begin to question their beliefs. This jackass doesn't actually have any beliefs to challenge. No warnings, simply eject the troll and move on.

Basically, I'd be a terrible moderator because I'd "abuse power". So I'll stick to making webpages, not moderating forums.
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Re: Hasbro

Postby Kurgan » August 26th, 2021, 10:11 am

Been there, done that. [Skip this post if you're bored already, it's a long one] I wouldn't really have the time (or much desire) to do it now at this stage in my life, I'd rather just be a regular user even though it would be nice to fix one or two things if I saw them, but others can do that easily enough.

I was a moderator for many years in a totally different community. I didn't do a perfect job, but it was something I enjoyed and things went pretty smoothly for the most part. The worst I ever got was when I deleted a bunch of spam posts (from a small group that in retrospect were just having some fun) which lead to a campaign by those people to get me demoted. I've been called every name in the book, but it had nothing to do with identity or politics, rather that some people felt like they were the best judge of how a forum should be run, based on some other unrelated community (or communities) they were a part of. They briefly succeeded but I was reinstated and continued to do my job there (volunteer, always, so it wasn't a real job) through periods of unpopular decisions like censoring risque material that didn't really belong and managing spoilers for a brief period for a certain product (those are the breaks, but it worked out, and the few who were still complaining eventually had nothing more to complain about) until other things in my life meant I couldn't devote the same time it deserved. After I retired from moderating (but stayed a member for several more years), some new people did things their own way but more or less it stayed the way it was intended by the site owners. But you moderate the "wrong" way, you're absolutely the worst person, as they'll tell it, because they want your "job!" Everybody wants a playground, but some want to troll. As irritating as the behavior is, are those people really "bad" at heart and do they really believe the things they say? A real troll would never tell.

People who enforce the rules will grind up against those who want to test them to prove some point, that's true in all of life, so it's a good lesson to learn here in internet-land. But the idea that everyone needs to believe exactly what I do, and I'm going to throw my power around to try to force that to happen, is territory that I don't like to get into on the internet. I can pray for your soul, while agreeing to disagree, live and let live. We experimented with having debate forums (which were really good, people were very mature for the most part and had some excellent long conversations about all sorts of deep topics), and the failed experiment was a no holds barred forum where it was just about insulting each other. So there you go.

That's why I like small communities like this, because you can do whatever you want (within reason) and if you don't like it you can start your own fairly easily. With social media it becomes much more a struggle between the will of the mob and the corporate overlords who want to get the most profit from advertising and data-mining possible, with the draw of discussing shared interests and exchange of ideas falling by the wayside. In other words, those platforms start to look more and more like old corporate media where everything is carefully choreographed to follow a very specific narrative designed to get maximum viewership and advertising dollars while pushing the agenda of a very few at the top.

I don't want to just sit there and nod my head to whatever the political fads of the day are and what some CEO wants me to say and I can't say what I really think about a product or service for fear that I'll lose access.

I'm imagining leaping back into all those old communities and "firing" everyone because they expressed opinions or used words that are no longer PC. Nobody would be left, and the most ardent crusaders for whatever would be considered bigots by the radicals of today (just as tomorrow's radicals will judge them as backward if not outright bigoted, mark my words). Letting someone have a "wrong" (in your view) opinion and learning to live in the same world with them (even if you fail to change their mind with reason) vs seeking to punish them until they vanish from the world (or convert to your viewpoint) is a much more human way to live, I think. After all, for the most part we are talking to other ordinary folks here, not the powerful who can change the world to whatever end. My believing "wrong things" doesn't impact your life anymore than you believing "wrong things" doesn't impact mine... at least in terms of preventing us from enjoying other things together that have nothing to do with that issue. If the guy who cooked my steak is actually a racist, I'll never know, or care, unless somehow it means he was trying to poison me or something I guess, but there are other things preventing that from being a likely threat. But a little grace ought to be extended, because even the most hardcore of modern crusaders should know that their own past is not perfect, and the culture will undoubtedly change in the future, meaning they will not always be on the crest of the curve.

The internet's social media algorithms are designed to gather data, notice trends and recommend similar things and to let others use that data to maximize potential profit, so the diversity of platforms has tended towards creating echo chambers. This tends to make people even more unprepared to debate their ideas in an open and civil way. Hence the tendency to try to chase away dissenters and try to get them banned or whatever. There are many theories of freedom, but the freedom to experiment, to reinvent one's self and even the freedom to be "wrong" in the eyes of the majority seem to be important safeguards from the whims of the mob or the dictatorial control of a few. Again here I'm speaking in broad terms. A forum having strict rules and kicking people out is comparable to having strict rules in your home you impose upon guests. But when your "home" contains millions of people, it becomes a different story. It's like if one business has exclusionary practices, who cares, shop somewhere else, but if they're the only game in town (or almost the only game in town) then they have more of a responsibility to be more open for fear of outright oppression. Lots of political theories about this sort of thing and lots of debates on the extent of it (with lots of passion behind every one of those theories and arguments), I realize. Hence, this is not the place for it. I'm just acknowledging it exists.

So the problem I think is not that people want to have their own community, that shares their "values" to a certain extent and want to keep people out who rub them the wrong way, that's a natural enough inclination. Rather the issue is with those who want broad censorship, to make it so that certain beliefs are not just unwelcome in every possible venue, but actively sought out and persecuted into silence, not by force of argument but by brute force, even though no one is actually being physically threatened (being "offended" by something you see or hear is not the same as actual violence, some disagree, but those are the facts).

So yeah, if a company like Hasbro wants to jump on some kind of bandwagon to appeal to those who want to purify all culture from wrongthink, I think that's a riskier strategy than just trying to stay out of that fight and just producing quality products that lots of people want to actually buy. They'll alienate lots of potential or current customers who don't agree with them 100%, and they'll be forced to evaluate their own past actions and damage their own reputations (and lose more potential sales, not to mention damage their own IPs) in the process. All to please a small segment of their audience for this brief time period as the phases shift and so forth.

Many, if not all big companies have some kind of sensitivity training they mandate for their employees. Let's be real, it's not so much that these companies actually care about the issues at hand, but it's a stop-gap measure to head off potential lawsuits, a token gesture to re-assure investors and share holders that they have a plan to stave off potential problems (and have another ready excuse after they've fired someone... well, we tried to warn him!). The general principle that you don't want to offend your customers, because all their money is the same color makes a lot of sense in a purely pragmatic way. Corporations are utilitarian for the most part. If you are a non-profit trying to promote a specific ideology, that's cool, but companies like Hasbro don't fit into that category.

Some have speculated a future where you'll have separate companies for every ideology. But in terms of the market that seems rather inefficient (I'm not stumping for monopolies here, but this would be even more ridiculously segmented than necessary). And really, do I really care that much if the person who put my toys into the bag has different beliefs than I do, so long as they did what I paid them for properly? Sure, it would be nice to make some kind of statement, saying you're giving your money only to people who uphold all your same values, but good luck finding such a perfect match with everything. Since these are luxuries, rather than essentials, I guess it's easier to make those choices, but an entertainment company taking really loud positions on controversial topics seems like a risky strategy, again, since your goal is not so much to be "right" (forever?) but to push more products and make more profit in the process. Instead, what you'll get is Big Company X makes r-rated games for mature audiences and maybe has another division that makes g-rated games for kiddos, and Competitor Company Y makes extreeeeeeeeme games for rad dudes and such but also sells normy edition games on the side to net some more dollars they'd otherwise miss out on.

But I'm not in charge of Hasbro, and even if every single one of their customers complains that they're doing it wrong, they still can ignore us and do what they were going to do anyway. Unless their pride is set aside and it starts to cut into their profits, they won't change. But people can still try and send them letters, of course and talk about it in public to see how those decisions are perceived (and the interview video was one such conversation, certainly not the beginning or the end of it).

Eventually I'm going to start repeating myself and nobody wants to hear that. :D

"Oh I see you bought the Republican Hero Quest, good for you, but I'm buying the Democrat Hero Quest since that's what I believe in. Bill over here, he bought the Libertarian Hero Quest, let's jump him after the game... just kidding!"

Making people work it out among themselves, rather than having authority figures force an end to the dispute is a refreshing option so far.


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Re: Hasbro

Postby cornixt » August 26th, 2021, 4:53 pm

iKarith wrote:
cornixt wrote:You don't have to say specifically racist/sexist/homophobic things to make it clear where you stand on those issues, the language you use and the measures you are against are more than enough.


Why does this smack of "you're guilty if I say I FEEL you are guilty, and I don't have to provide proof, examples, or even names. I just get to be offended and therefore I'm right!"


I'm not convicting anyone here, I hadn't accused anyone of being any of the -ists. I was not policing anyone, I was not calling the mods on them, just mentioning that I have noticed it. I've left it unchallenged so many times on the forums because I think it is off-topic and would just spur people on more. I could have responded to Pancho last week, but I thought I'd drop it again. Seems that people really want this conversation to keep going.

If you really want to know why I said it, it's because the same language keeps coming up on here. It starts soft, and it's only going to get worse. It's all the usual rightwing dog whistles: complaints about SJWs, CRT, BLM, woke, antifa, kneejerks about any equality measures, agendas, outrage, hairstyles of particular types, new slang, and the really deep go for things like cucks, NPCs, deep state. No one actually has to say how they consider certain other races or similar, that would be socially unacceptable, but it's understood, the code is clear to those that know it, and leaves lots of room for racism denial. People realised that racism is perceived as bad, but rather than stop being racist they just couch it in different terms and hide it behind common conditions.
Then you get phrases along the lines of:
"Equality is what I think it is and those affected are making things worse for themselves by complaining about things that I don't consider to be an issue for them." which has a twin in "Only those directly affected are allowed to complain about things" in order to keep the voices as quiet as possible.
"I'm not against people of this race, I only behave this way around those of them who display a certain part of their culture that I dislike." which just happens to be a huge part of their culture.
"State rights" or any other rights where people are allowed to be discriminatory. Libertarians when it comes to stuff they want, authoritarian when it comes to other people.
And after they let slip when they don't think anyone else will hear "I realise now that I should not have used that word/phrase" about something that everyone knows is racist.

Pancho really wants me to actually accuse him, so I will because he does many of the above. It's why he is pushing "You have no proof" rather than "No one is being racist". It's why he feels attacked whenever anyone complains even when no one called him out directly - he self-identifies with it. He's not alone in this, there are other frequent contributors who sometimes do the same, but he is asking to be called out. I just wish it would stop, people would leave their politics at the door so we can get back to the actual game.


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you'll have to tolerate his opinion,fighting won't change it

Postby Kurgan » August 26th, 2021, 6:21 pm

cornixt,
Isn't this all kind of painting the world in black and white... as if there's a "good side" (wokism) and then the "bad guys" (those who complain about it) with the racists being easily identified as the latter group?

If that's what you believe, I mean, I think you're dead wrong, and that's a crazy way to look at the world that could keep you from discovering the potentials of life, but that doesn't mean we can't still be friends, even if having your way meant I would be banned from polite society for disagreeing. I'm friends with lots of people who think I'm going straight to hell and dead wrong myself about many things. Maybe not all are able to be as tolerant as I, but I wonder what's stopping them. Having grown up in western society, I know that "racist" is an insult. It means you think the person is about as evil as one can get. I don't think of myself as evil or as a racist, but others may disagree, especially if they have a very different definition of "racism." If we can't agree on a common definition of a word, what good is it, especially if its so important in identifying who the bad people are? And if it's an accusation that's unfalsifiable, again, of what use is it?

I think there are far more than two "sides" as above and if pressed, I can defend it with reason, logic, and evidence in a civil discussion. I think few people can live up to the standards they set for others, so a little humility goes a long way, but when one starts throwing around accusations, can you blame others for being inquisitive just exactly what they're being accused of, so they can begin to mount a defense (or else to make amends)? Is the goal destruction of those different, or understanding, perhaps to the point of converting them to your point of view or at least instilling in them respect for your difference?

I can't help it if strangers hate me* without just cause, but I am curious why. Perhaps there is some misconception that can be cleared up to ease their mind? If they think I'm speaking in secret code and they've got their own secret code that I don't know, imagine the problems for our communication, so let's cut through that BS, if we want to make any progress. *I say "me" here but sometimes when someone is getting piled on, I instinctively want to take their side, at least to find out what's going on.

More curiosity than anything else why someone would hold to the Manichean worldview implied above, but perhaps this calls for discussions off the forum on it. Any takers, I'm game. I'm not looking for a fight, but discussions are always welcome (I'll be off for a few days but at least when I return, if you wish, we can start one, privately).

Otherwise yeah, let's hate each other's guts and keep that buried deep inside (if that's what it takes) and get back to the game we all love. I'm willing to drop the whole subject if others will, but something tells me that somebody wants to go deeper on it, then why not, it can be done peacefully in an adult manner without involving the entire forum.


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Re: Hasbro

Postby Pancho » August 27th, 2021, 3:35 am

cornixt wrote:
iKarith wrote:
cornixt wrote:You don't have to say specifically racist/sexist/homophobic things to make it clear where you stand on those issues, the language you use and the measures you are against are more than enough.


Why does this smack of "you're guilty if I say I FEEL you are guilty, and I don't have to provide proof, examples, or even names. I just get to be offended and therefore I'm right!"


I'm not convicting anyone here, I hadn't accused anyone of being any of the -ists. I was not policing anyone, I was not calling the mods on them, just mentioning that I have noticed it. I've left it unchallenged so many times on the forums because I think it is off-topic and would just spur people on more. I could have responded to Pancho last week, but I thought I'd drop it again. Seems that people really want this conversation to keep going.

If you really want to know why I said it, it's because the same language keeps coming up on here. It starts soft, and it's only going to get worse. It's all the usual rightwing dog whistles: complaints about SJWs, CRT, BLM, woke, antifa, kneejerks about any equality measures, agendas, outrage, hairstyles of particular types, new slang, and the really deep go for things like cucks, NPCs, deep state. No one actually has to say how they consider certain other races or similar, that would be socially unacceptable, but it's understood, the code is clear to those that know it, and leaves lots of room for racism denial. People realised that racism is perceived as bad, but rather than stop being racist they just couch it in different terms and hide it behind common conditions.
Then you get phrases along the lines of:
"Equality is what I think it is and those affected are making things worse for themselves by complaining about things that I don't consider to be an issue for them." which has a twin in "Only those directly affected are allowed to complain about things" in order to keep the voices as quiet as possible.
"I'm not against people of this race, I only behave this way around those of them who display a certain part of their culture that I dislike." which just happens to be a huge part of their culture.
"State rights" or any other rights where people are allowed to be discriminatory. Libertarians when it comes to stuff they want, authoritarian when it comes to other people.
And after they let slip when they don't think anyone else will hear "I realise now that I should not have used that word/phrase" about something that everyone knows is racist.

Pancho really wants me to actually accuse him, so I will because he does many of the above. It's why he is pushing "You have no proof" rather than "No one is being racist". It's why he feels attacked whenever anyone complains even when no one called him out directly - he self-identifies with it. He's not alone in this, there are other frequent contributors who sometimes do the same, but he is asking to be called out. I just wish it would stop, people would leave their politics at the door so we can get back to the actual game.

IKarith, you were completely right. They don’t have to provide evidence or examples, just feelings. It’s sooooo boring.

Cornixt, you are wrong yet again, somebody did “call me out directly”. Bastianbux did on the other thread months ago, he accused me directly then locked his quest packs so others who had nothing to do with this couldn’t see them, and left the forum (for a bit).
I’m not sure if the other two SJWs here (you and Cynthia) have accused me directly. I’m not at particularly bothered if you have or haven’t to be honest, as I can shrug off silly personal attacks when everyone who isn’t an SJW can see they are made without basis. The thing that DOES really bother me, and obviously this goes beyond these silly threads into the wider cultural landscape, is how wokists have demeaned words like racist and bigot or their own petty agenda to the point where they have lost all meaning. This is what I will never forgive the far left for. My Son, who isn’t white, will have to grow up in this cesspit of identity politics that you lunatics have created. Bravo.

I’m done, bye.


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Re: Hasbro

Postby iKarith » August 27th, 2021, 10:21 am

cornixt wrote:
iKarith wrote:
cornixt wrote:You don't have to say specifically racist/sexist/homophobic things to make it clear where you stand on those issues, the language you use and the measures you are against are more than enough.


Why does this smack of "you're guilty if I say I FEEL you are guilty, and I don't have to provide proof, examples, or even names. I just get to be offended and therefore I'm right!"


I'm not convicting anyone here, I hadn't accused anyone of being any of the -ists. I was not policing anyone, I was not calling the mods on them, just mentioning that I have noticed it. I've left it unchallenged so many times on the forums because I think it is off-topic and would just spur people on more. I could have responded to Pancho last week, but I thought I'd drop it again. Seems that people really want this conversation to keep going.

If you really want to know why I said it, it's because the same language keeps coming up on here. It starts soft, and it's only going to get worse. It's all the usual rightwing dog whistles: complaints about SJWs, CRT, BLM, woke, antifa, …


Let's see, I can name two groups of people who have both actively attempted to murder me…

One was a group of white supremacist neo-nazis.

The other was Rose Shitty Antifa.

They later did murder a guy I met at a bar a time or two. He wasn't a so-called "nazi". I already said it: I've encountered them. He wasn't one. He wasn't a racist or a sexist either. He was a Trump voter. And one of your heroic little antifa shitbags hid behind a corner, gun in hand in ambush, and blew his freakin' brains out.

I have zero interest whatsoever in a person's skin color, their religion, their sexuality, who they vote for, or what they believe. Until what they believe involves initiation of violence against other people for having different ones. If that position makes me your enemy, then I am proud to be the object of your psychotic and irrational hate. If this board ain't big enough for the both of us, you can certainly feel free to leave, because I won't be going anywhere unless banned. I did volunteer to work on the website, but have no power to control anything on the forum and don't want it. But I also won't run over for some asswipe promoting violent political terrorists.

I literally stopped reading the very instant you started supporting antifa. Hard stop, end of line.
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