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GM vs Overpowered Heroes

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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby Anderas » October 9th, 2014, 2:23 pm

... and as you are the Game Master, your opinion is the only one that counts. Discussion closed.

I would go so far to say: If there are more Heros than Monsters, you're in desperate need. (Be careful with that, though; not that you kill the heroes by accident. It should be on purpose! :mrgreen: :chaoswarrior: )

Whereas, i wouln't give a Intelligence 0 or 1 Monster any thinking ability. The Boss, on the other hand, he could even go and call for reinforcements if there's still plenty of Monsters to slay.


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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby artisturn » October 9th, 2014, 2:27 pm

We played another game a few days ago and since the wizard died , the party is a little more cautious now.

Now they are searching for traps more often and secret doors before they go hunting for treasure.

In our last game they found the Wizard's cloak so now the wizard will have a better chance at defense.


I found just by substituting some of the monsters it has helped with the balance of the game, for example if the map has four goblins in a room,I put down two orcs and two goblins instead.

Also this was the first time where it took the heroes three turns to clear out a boss room,plus this is also the first time they had to face a spellcaster,so I think that had a lot to do with it.
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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby Anderas » October 9th, 2014, 2:34 pm

How's the Barbarian and the Dwarf at the moment? Are they worth stealing their stuff? And the Elf/Alb/Whatever?


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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby mako-heart » October 11th, 2014, 12:03 am

All of my boss baddies have the chaos deck as an option to draw at random, use your tools to thwart the heros at all chances. Hero's love epic battles write a little backstory and watch them melt.thats the best feeling as zargon. watching players just get completely enchanted with HQ,And@ Anderas they are worth it.
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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby Jafazo » October 14th, 2014, 1:53 pm

In order to handle overpowered players I'd first ask whether ANY of the content being used ingame is custom. Custom features tend to be imbalanced. Assuming they're not overpowered because of custom content here are a few suggestions on how I handle powerful Heroes.

Do NOT make Heroes lose artifacts, armor and equipment on a regular basis. That's a HORRIBLE idea and unmotivates your players. If they expect to constantly lose and find armor and weapon pieces frequently, they'll never get attached to things or feel a sense of accomplishment and success. Losing an artifact, like the Spirit Blade, should be a jaw dropping experience. In my opinion, the loss of an artifact shouldn't happen more than about once per quest booklet.

Hero Quests original rules isolate encounters. What that means is that the rules are set up so that Heros basically open a door and deal with the encounter behind it. When a Hero 'opens a door' he effectively 'activates a room'. That room is isolated from other rooms so enemies within it have to fend for themselves without help. This is where most of the problem takes place because a team of 4 well geared and experienced Heroes can dispatch a room with relative ease. Here are a few good ways to improve encounters.

1 - Survive their first attack! Heroes usually attack before you do. They gather by closed doors, open it and you cry as they hungrily dispatch the 5 Orcs you were sure would challenge them. Just about every encounter in your game has to survive that first attack from Heroes so throw in a few weak dummy targets. For example, in that room of 5 Orcs, if each player attacks, they will dispatch about 3 Orcs leaving you with about 1 Orc to attack them back with. Add two goblins to that and strategically place them in the front. On your next turn you'll have a good chance of hitting the Heroes with about 3 Orcs on your next turn.

2. Make your Traps smarter! As Heroes get stronger, more strategically placed traps should be expected. The number of easily discoverable spear traps in a lonely empty hallway should reduce substantially. Instead, set up spear traps in front of your minions so Heroes trigger them when they rush in to attack. They can't search for traps as long as a monster occupies the room so the trap is guaranteed to stay hidden and gives you a 50% chance their turn will end if they roll a skull and get hit with it. Don't abuse this tip though because it can kill Heroes. Each quest should contain no more than about 8 of these strategically placed traps with no more than about 2 per room. Likewise, a strategically placed pit trap can turn the tables suddenly and give your monster a small advantage when he attacks on his next turn. Put a pit trap in front of doors now and again too so Heroes can't search for them and trigger them automatically. Tough Heroes can handle about 2 of these per quest. To mask your evil doings, scatter a few of those 'easily discoverable' traps to give Heroes the illusion they're still finding and disarming some.

3. Improve the number and quality of your rooms! More rooms means more encounters so add more rooms. Also, for each empty room you have in your quest you should improve the encounter within another room by twice it's difficulty. In other words, overall, the quest should hit players with one encounter per room even if it doesn't LOOK like it because some rooms are empty.

4. Start ditching your bread and butter weak monsters for bread and butter medium monsters. In other words, make Goblins more scarce and instead make Firmirs a more frequent face accompanied by a couple of Orcs. When Heroes start to miss Goblins, have them open the next door and find a room full of Goblins with one goblin per square! If you're a fan of Orcs, just make up an in-story excuse and give Orcs the Firmir's stats. Just remember to introduce them in number accordingly as if they were Firmir's.

5. Place more Chaos spells within your quests. In some quests we're introduced to specific monsters who are given chaos spells. No matter who wields them, chaos spells within your quest improve its difficulty. Usually we see chaos spells handed to boss monsters, but we can just as easily hand them to run of the mill Goblins and Orcs. Start introducing magic casting labels to common monsters such as the Shaman Orc and Shaman Goblin. As a strict rule though, don't ever give such a monster more than one spell. You'll quickly notice heroes target your magic casting monsters first, so getting your spells into the quest may become more difficult. Another idea to sneak chaos spells into your quests by having monsters use magic artifacts. An Orc can activate a one time use magic ring that hits a hero with a ball of fire spell.

6. The Alarmist. As Zargon, give yourself a set number of Alarmists per quest between 2 to 3. On your turn choose a monster and state that he is sounding an alarm and activating a nearby room. The monster can activate any room within its line of sight. To do so, open the door within the Alarmists line of sight and set the room up. That rooms monsters become active and can move and attack immediately on Zargons turn. This lets you combine encounters between rooms at a kind of random basis and can really challenge Heroes.

7. Get creative. This is the one idea that will never get old, everything else will. You can get creative and challenge heroes on a huge scale or a small scale. Small scale challenges can be unique traps such as a tar pit that requires a roll of a 6 on 1d6 to escape. A cursed item attaches itself to the Wizard so anytime he casts a spell he must roll a combat die and if he rolls a black shield the spell fails but is not wasted and his action is used up. Heroes laugh when they barge into a room of unarmed Firmir's who fight with 2 combat dice to attack, until their evil wizard casts a unique magnetism spell that pulls weapons to the ground forcing anyone in the room to fight unarmed for this encounter.
Unless you specify your version I'm going by the US rules.
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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby Daedalus » October 16th, 2014, 5:12 pm

artisturn wrote:Also in our last game the party lost their wizard,not from fighting but from searching for treasure.

Beginning Hero players with low Body Points are likely to make that mistake as they learn how the treasue deck works. The Wizard is particularly vulnerable to this rookie error as Body Points start low. Any Hero with low Body Points shouldn't search for treasure unless protected, particulary if the Quest objective hasn't yet been fulfilled. Still, this doesn't preclude treasure searches for the Wizard or other hurting Heroes when they are played tactically.

A Wizard or other Hero with low Body Points can search for treasure with relative safety from Wandering Monsters if his turn is first or second in the turn order sequence. He must also be located in a corner while adjacently flanked by two other Heroes with decent defense and current Body Points. If a Wandering Monster is drawn, it is prevented from attacking immediately and it may first be attacked by the other Heroes who haven't yet taken thier turns. If the European rules are in effect, a Hero wishing to attack should be careful the Wandering Monster remains blocked from attacking the Wizard in case it survives. If using the North American rules, the Wandering Monster must even be placed between the guarding Heroes. This means they may attack and maintain their defensive position for at least their first turns of the sequence. This all burns a lot of game time, so I wouldn't let more than one Hero pull off this tactic in a room using NA rules.

Hazards remain a threat, so the Wizard and other Heroes with few Body Points would be well advised to save treasure searches until after Quest objective completion. A Hero can safely search for treasure at this point if his flanking guards remain strong enough to counter the Wandering Monster of the Quest. Whether the risk of a Wandering Monster in the room is worth the possible gain of treasure is up to the players to decide. If a Hero somehow die as an unlucky result, the surviving Heroes can pick up the fallen Hero's equipment and soon exit the Quest--no loss other than a new Hero name.

cynthialee wrote:On allowing monsters and villains to open doors to call for back up here are some guidance for you based on my experience:
Monsters should only open doors for back up when they are in desperate need. {monsters are glory hounds}
Monsters only open doors in the same room or hallway they are in. {taking the time to go 2 rooms away to get back up would be seen as running from battle}
Monsters in the room that was just opened go into the room or hallway that called for back up. They may not open a door in this room as they are charging into battle into the other room or hallway. Villains are likely to do as they please in regards to doors. {so if they find a villain and he is under-powered, he just might open every door he can to swarm the heroes with the minions of chaos.}

The above mods should only be used on powerful Heroes. Base issue heroes will not live long at all and you will end with frustrated and angry players with these mods.

Nice guidelines. For the most part, I prefer to follow the example from WoM and include door opening specifics to the Quest Notes section, rather than making it a global rule. However, on-the-fly surprises can save an otherwise boring cakewalk, so I might occassionally try the tactic anyway. For such cases, I think "desperate need" can be defined as when the current Body Point total for the monsters in a room is half or less than the number of Heroes present.
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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby Anderas » October 17th, 2014, 4:40 am

If the Problem with too strong Heros remains, use Ogres. They are a threat even to very strong Heros.


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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby knightkrawler » October 17th, 2014, 5:20 am

Daedalus wrote:Hazards remain a threat, so the Wizard and other Heroes with few Body Points would be well advised to save treasure searches until after Quest objective completion.


There's a risk that low health Heroes discover the money making mechanisms after quest completion. Only one Hero has to pull through to the exit. If on the way, after the mission has been accomplished, the Heroes tactically search for treasure in such a way that they risk three deaths at the most and the fourth keeps picking up their stuff using NA rules, that is one clever and boiled hard group. I've never seen this in any extreme measure - I think I killed one Hero with wandering monsters and treasure traps after quest completion - but I inplemented my Morcar cards (fate/encounter cards, whatchamacallit) for countering empty Morcar turns (no monsters active) and the post-quest completion/monsters raided scenario.
You could also replace some killed monsters with undead or whatever you like when the heroes enter individual rooms after having completed the quest objective. There's always an excuse: foul necromancy, monsters flooding in from other levels/deeper in the dungeon...
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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby mitchiemasha » October 17th, 2014, 6:54 am

knightkrawler wrote:
There's a risk that low health Heroes discover the money making mechanisms after quest completion. Only one Hero has to pull through to the exit. If on the way, after the mission has been accomplished, the Heroes tactically search for treasure in such a way that they risk three deaths at the most and the fourth keeps picking up their stuff using NA rules, that is one clever and boiled hard group.


WHAT! Not caring that your lil Hero dies! This makes me sick. All because you know you can get a new one and get the other give you your stuff back. I'd be ashamed with any player who played this way. That's just playing the game at its mechanics and not playing the game for the fantasy!

I'd never thought of it before as the loss of my character is such a heart filled moment. I hung on to the bitter end once with the AHQ elf in HQ. Up and down 1 last corridor a few times desperately trying to survive with 1bp. It was obviously over but I didn't want to die! I even had a Bow but it just wasn't to be!

I've adapted DM Tokens from AHQ into HQ so it's a good idea to get out as fast as possible once the Quest is complete. You don't want to be re-entering emptied rooms if the DM has any Tokens. One of them is ambush, it allows the DM to replace the monsters of that room, excluding special characters. The DM gets to pick a new Token out the bag every round of play there's no monsters in play. There's a good chance the DM only has fate tokens or escape tokens, useless in an emptied dungeon, but it's the Hero players risk. The longer they take the more chance of ambush!


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Re: GM vs Overpowered Heroes

Postby knightkrawler » October 17th, 2014, 7:07 am

As I mentioned, I've never had this happen. I'm completely on the same page with you there.
My ruleset with this attractive choice of heroes and handling hero death and creation might tempt some players, however. That's why I counter beforehand with the Morcar cards and other mechanics.
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