Thoughts and Prayers for France

[yellowmosquito]

Quite some time has passed since this event, but I since no one mentioned the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist's perspective, and so I thought it was worth including here. Hopefully some of the original posters here will see it, and see some sense in it.



An article that summarizes this position: Don’t Pray For Paris – Reject Religious Extremism

You may not agree with the article, but you should at least admit to yourself that if we keep the faith collectively, religious wars will never stop. This is "us vs them" in it's most potent form.

[Gold Bearer]

Religion is a very silly thing to get so worked up over that you're willing to kill for it. Thor would wipe the floor with Jesus and Muhammad, at the same time. He has a magic hammer!

[yellowmosquito]

Religion is a very silly thing to get so worked up over that you're willing to kill for it. Thor would wipe the floor with Jesus and Muhammad, at the same time. He has a magic hammer!

Yes, but Jesus saves....and only takes half damage.


(Sorry, someone had to say it.)

[Gold Bearer]

Yes but Thor can fly. Jesus can... walk on water. Lame! It's not even as useful as walking on concrete. Besides, I can swim.

[Count Mohawk]

There's a saying: "God helps those who help themselves."

That is, expecting any God to magically solve all the world's problems is not a productive use of your faith.

That said, I don't agree with Charlie Hebdo's opinion that the world does not need religion. Just because evil people perform evil acts in the name of religion does not mean that all religions are bad. After all, it is not only religion that the powers of evil subvert; capitalism and democracy fall just as easily.

[Redav]

The flaw is that it's not the religion that is making them do it. Religion doesn't have anything to do with it. They're just evil people and evil doesn't discriminate, it appears in all walks of life irrespective of background. They just happen to be people who using selective elements of their religion as justification for their actions even though their complete teachings preach against the very thing they're doing. Hypocrites. But then again, everyone's a hypocrite.

[yellowmosquito]

The flaw is that it's not the religion that is making them do it. Religion doesn't have anything to do with it. They're just evil people and evil doesn't discriminate, it appears in all walks of life irrespective of background. They just happen to be people who using selective elements of their religion as justification for their actions even though their complete teachings preach against the very thing they're doing. Hypocrites. But then again, everyone's a hypocrite.

Well, you can't really say that "Religion doesn't have anything to do with it" in fairness. Religion does have something to do with it.

1) The Quaran and Hadith are quite clear in calling muslims to kill blasphemers and apostates. It is in the holy texts, and part of the religion.

2) Those attackers most likely followed Sharia law, which is literal interpretation of the holy texts of Islam. Remember - under Sharia law, these texts are to be followed literally, which absolutely compounds the problem, because of #1 up above. (Here is a list of places where sharia law is practiced to some extent.)

I think the major part of the problem lies with how much power religion commands in the world, yet how little the common person understands it for themselves. We tend to listen to our leaders about what the messages are, rather than reading the books and figuring those messages out for ourselves. And because we don't fully understand our own religions without a translator, we are likely to be easily swayed and coerced to do things - both moral, and immoral - without really thinking about the right thing to do, because "what god wants" has already been firmly planted in our minds. Also keep in mind, that in many of these places, the only education available is religion. I would be willing to bet that 99% of fundamentalists don't consider themselves "evil", as you mentioned. I'd expect they think they are doing god's will.

I think the only way to make progress against fundamentalism is through education. However, I'm not sure that we will ever see an end to fundamentalism outright, for as long as the laws of god are believed to trump the laws of man, there will be some huckster willing to take advantage.

[knightkrawler]

To expand on what The Count said: democracy is a big freakin' lie.

[torilen]

OH MAN - drathe might want to lock this thread before it gets out of hand.
Lock it and block it and throw away the key.

[Gold Bearer]

There's a saying: "God helps those who help themselves."

If they're helping themselves then it wasn't god. It's just another way of saying god has no measurable affect on anything, because it only exists in the minds of the indoctrinated. Bad things happen to non-believers, they're being punished. Bad things happen to believers, they're being tested.

I would be willing to bet that 99% of fundamentalists don't consider themselves "evil", as you mentioned. I'd expect they think they are doing god's will.

Nobody thinks of themselves as evil, it wouldn't makes sense.

The Quaran and Hadith are quite clear in calling muslims to kill blasphemers and apostates. It is in the holy texts, and part of the religion.

The bible has them beat hands down. It's not a book of love as so often claimed, it's a book of utter hatred from a disgusting religion.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!” The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures. (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

“All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

And so on.