My first fan supplement

[Teldurn]

While I don't want to speak for him in response to these comments (he will chime in when he has the opportunity), I do want to point out a couple things.

First, let's not forget that this is a game with magic spells and elves and *lemony goodness*. It doesn't need to be that deeply historically accurate. HeroQuest is not a miniatures skirmish game, and dear lord I hope it never turns into one. Personally, I operate with the Rule of Cool: Is it fun? Is it balanced? Then rock the fraggle on!
Could these rules be improved upon a little? Sure. But they probably don't need to be altered as extensively as suggested.

Second, I think the goal was to be thematic and interesting, which in my opinion, it succeeded with flying colors.

[Count Mohawk]

Second, I think the goal was to be thematic and interesting, which in my opinion, it succeeded with flying colors.

Of course. I did mention that I like it when people disregard Fantasy Gun Control, yes? My apologies if my appreciation got lost under my interest in balancing other peoples' game mechanics.

I read somewhere that people who criticize you fall into one of two categories: Either they do it because they like what you did and think it could be even better than it is, or they just like ragging on people and tearing them down. Hopefully this falls into that first category.

[cynthialee]

I like the basic concept it is obvious allot of care and work into the presentation
Just guns are more deadly than indicated in these rules. One of my minor concerns is that games that diminish the deadly factor of medieval guns are doing a dangerous disservice. I knew a fella who was so adamant in his belief that a black powder pistol was ineffective past 50 yards he would be willing to be shot with one to prove the point. It wasn't until I shot up a plank of wood at 50 yards and he saw the damage that he would believe me.
Do not underplay the power of ancient guns. Guns are deadly and a total game changer, even ancient guns. The only redeeming factor for these weapons in a fantasy setting is their slow reload.
Gunpowder is not a minor weapon. It was the weapon that ended the swords and armor era.

[thelasthobbit]

While I agree gunpowder is nothing to screw with and it absolutely changed the nature of warfare I was not attempting to create a historically accurate set of rules regarding firearms. I wanted a set of rules that was quick, simple, and felt like firearms. I wanted to add excitement and a bit of chance in return for the small potential of greater damage.

It's not about respecting historic accuracy in a setting with Chaos Warriors, Gargoyles, and Elves. It's about mythology and legend with a pseudo-historic feel.

That being said, I genuinely appreciate the insight and analytics of my work - it really shows passion and dedication to HQ.

[slev]

Empirically, bows are the better weapon. They can shoot further than black powder, with greater accuracy and are easier to maintain.

However, powder weapons are easier to learn to use effectively, and lack the strength & fitness requirements for effective use that prevented the bow from continuing as a military weapon.

So, with the same amount of training, the firearm is the better weapon, but it has much less potential than the bow.

This is why, during the Peninsula Campaign, Lord Wellington bemoaned a lack of Longbow men in his ranks, as he believed that they would have made short work of the French columns.

The problem is that this is VERY difficult to map into HeroQuest. I managed it through the tables in Advanced HeroQuest, but that’s a very different system.

[knightkrawler]

While I agree gunpowder is nothing to screw with and it absolutely changed the nature of warfare I was not attempting to create a historically accurate set of rules regarding firearms. I wanted a set of rules that was quick, simple, and felt like firearms. I wanted to add excitement and a bit of chance in return for the small potential of greater damage.

It's not about respecting historic accuracy in a setting with Chaos Warriors, Gargoyles, and Elves.

Welcome, dude. And I concur wholeheartedly. This mantra needs to be repeated time and time again when you set out to write rules for a game.

[cynthialee]

Empirically, bows are the better weapon. They can shoot further than black powder, with greater accuracy and are easier to maintain.

However, powder weapons are easier to learn to use effectively, and lack the strength & fitness requirements for effective use that prevented the bow from continuing as a military weapon.

So, with the same amount of training, the firearm is the better weapon, but it has much less potential than the bow.

This is why, during the Peninsula Campaign, Lord Wellington bemoaned a lack of Longbow men in his ranks, as he believed that they would have made short work of the French columns.

The problem is that this is VERY difficult to map into HeroQuest. I managed it through the tables in Advanced HeroQuest, but that’s a very different system.

That is patently false!


I hunt. I know what I am talking about here. Bows have a much lousier range than the musket or rifle.

[cynthialee]

I highly suggest you do some actual research instead of pulling wild ideas out of thin air.
Musket: Maximum Effective Range= 75 yards
Bow: Maximum effective range= 50 yards

And do not wave the English long bow in my face. It is NOT a viable weapon in a dungeon. Only a short bow or cross bow is going to be of value indoors. An arrow arches in its trajectory. The heroes don't even have access to a long bow. Just the cross-bow and the thing has no reload action required, so it is pure fantasy.

And yes...we are playing a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean we get to outright rule that guns are less effective than bows. Never in the history of man has the bow been a viable weapon over the gun. If it was...then no one would have abandoned archery weapons.

[cornixt]

And yes...we are playing a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean we get to outright rule that guns are less effective than bows. Never in the history of man has the bow been a viable weapon over the gun.

When gunpowder was not available

If it was...then no one would have abandoned archery weapons.

Probably a good reason to make it not very good in the game. If you want people to use the medieval weapons then you can't have the thing that historically replaced them actually replacing them in the game. This kind of fantasy exists in that little period where guns weren't as good yet - because otherwise people would be using them instead - the fact that they aren't is proof that they aren't as good.

[Teldurn]

The heroes don't even have access to a long bow.

Let me stop you right there. The Armory for HeroQuest Prime (since that is the particular subforum you're commenting in ) indeed does have a Longbow, in addition to a Shortbow and a Crossbow, as ranged weapons.

Continuing from here regarding the range of the firearms: The Firearms supplement notes that the Pistol and Musket have a max range of 5 and 10 squares, respectively. And according to the HQP rules, the maximum range on weapons with the Ranged keyword (basically the three bows listed above) have a maximum range of a Hero's maximum Body Points. Let's consider that the Berserker and Warrior are the two classes with the highest BP, both being 8. So these two champs can nock a bow harder than anyone else. And that's awesome.

If the range of the Pistol and Musket were changed to 10 and 15, that'll be the end of that issue. Realize also, however, that Heroes' vision vicinity is a 5 square radius. So without a "spotter" standing farther away, it would be impossible for Heroes to even shoot the full extent of the weapon. But that becomes a tactical decision on the party's part.

As far as actual damage is concerned? I'll leave that to thelasthobbit to determine. He's the author, so it's his call to make. If I were running a game that included these rules, to me, they "feel" like guns and I don't think the damage dice need to be altered.

As far as reloading is concerned? Is it realistic to assume it would take a turn having to reload your weapon every other turn? Yes. Is it fun? HELL NO. Besides, consider the fact that a portion of the whole time you're playing, you're going to be spending it doing nothing anyway because you rolled 1 . This provides the necessary balance to the weapon against its longer range and higher damage.