HQ25 Chaos Cultist/Undead Chapter

[Gold Bearer]

Thanks Deadalus but it would have still messed about with the layout too much and I'd of had to do it from scratch. There's no need now, Count Mohawk has done a much better job of it. I don't think you can delete a post after someone else as posted, the icon for it isn't there.


Count Mohawk: I like the simplifications you've made. They probably were needed but I think the khorne chaos warriors should definitely have chaos armour (defend successfully if any black shields are rolled). Khorne warriors should be the toughest in a fight and it would be a nice nod to the WH world.

[Sjeng]

I'm just going to leave this here:

Cultists Full Page.png

It's a bit large since I made it 300dpi, but this is a 8.5" x 11" reference sheet for the abilities of the cultists during this Chapter.
I figured laying everything out this way would be easier to read, which makes it easier to add to Quests.

However nice this looks, we have already accomplished stats for chaos warriors and cultists. Extra quest-specific notes should be in the quest notes. Chaos and Swamp spells are available for them. Try to keep it simple.

[Gold Bearer]

However nice this looks, we have already accomplished stats for chaos warriors and cultists. Extra quest-specific notes should be in the quest notes. Chaos and Swamp spells are available for them. Try to keep it simple.

Whether the rules are repeated in the quest notes or not, this is far too nice to not use. How about a compromise? In the quest notes we say these are follows of whatever, for example, khorne and can attack twice and wear chaos armour. Refer to the chaos card for full rules. This would be exactly like the trap card in WoM.

There's been a definite change in direction since the beginning, when the message was basically go nuts and be as creative as possible. I understand try to keep things simple and clean (honestly I do) but I don't think it should be at the expense of good quality editions that will add something interesting. There's a danger of drawing the line too close to the simple side as well.

This would definitely be a very cool edition to the pack and I really don't think this is too complicated. Back me up people.

[Goblin-King]

There's been a definite change in direction since the beginning, when the message was basically go nuts and be as creative as possible. I understand try to keep things simple and clean (honestly I do) but I don't think it should be at the expense of good quality editions that will add something interesting. There's a danger of drawing the line too close to the simple side as well.

This would definitely be a very cool edition to the pack and I really don't think this is too complicated. Back me up people.

It has never been "go nuts". Right from the very start stuff like "choose your monsters" very much indicated that there were limits as well.
These decisions were not meant to be "guidelines" to be bent as needed.
The part of being creative still holds water, but in the way that we all present all our great ideas - and THEN we pick the 5 out of 100 that are excellent.
Obviously it would be one heck of a mess if everyone just did whatever they wanted!

Please, make it more simple!

[Gold Bearer]

Please, make it more simple!

Just couldn't resist the chance to stick the knife in could you GK!

Go wild for now. When we gather everything, we will start fleshing things out, and then balancing it, so the difficulty curve will rise normally without overpowering the heroes too soon, or making it way too difficult for them.
Feel free to create new spells, items, weapons, potions etc. I encourage new game mechanics such as new traps, tricks etc. Rolling boulders and revolving rooms are nice, but try giving them a little twist, so we're not copying thing exactly as they are now. Use any AHQ/WHQ ideas you can incorporate in HQ.

I think we're already past the point further simplifications improving it. The is the chaos chapter and it needs to go a bit more in depth to be worth anything.

Simple is being an overused term here as code for repetative and uninteresting. I feel our hands are being tied far too much and I'm starting to wonder what it is people actually want out of this. It's as if some people are treating this in a competative way and don't want certain other peoples work to be any good. It's nowhere near as much of a issue in the earlier quests but these are late quests and the standard move around the door, open it, attack monsters, next door, needs to be kept to a minimum at this point if we want people to be at all interested in reaching the end.

The rules on the card that Count Mohawk made are far from complicted and the oficial quest packs use space at the front end of the book to go through rules in order to prevent quest notes from becoming cluttered.

[Goblin-King]

Please, make it more simple!

Just couldn't resist the chance to stick the knife in could you GK!

I pretty much insist we keep the 3-quest intro.

I didn't know we could do that. I hereby pretty much insist that everything I say from this point on regarding this quest pack is gospel and shall be so and is not up for dabate.

Did you even read what followed that quote? Did you disagree with it?


I'm getting real tired of this... This needs to end now.
But Gold Bearer, YOU are the one with the attitude. If the above quotes were supposed to be funny somehow, they fell pretty flat.
YOU are deflecting most criticism with either hostility or "well, I still think it's a great idea".
You claim to have your hands tied, but that doesn't seem to slow you down. We made a monster list but you keep adding new anyway. Why?
Nobody is talking about "opening doors and killing monsters"; that's not what we/I mean with "simple".

Let me illustrate:

http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=199&t=2475

Page 1: What amounts to ~2 pages of story, in the middle of a quest pack; not intro or epilogue.
Page 2: 11 new monsters all with different special rules. Maybe more? I spotted a demon, swamplings and fogwalkers.
Page 8: 24 lines / 682 words of quest notes for a single quest. The following quote being one quest note:

D. This ogre is a shaman who is being held prisoner. He tells the heroes that there are two powerful magicians who have been sent by Morcar along with the Khorne reinforcements and it was them that ordered him to be locked in chains so they could drain his power. He says he has more useful information if they free him. If they have the key they can set him free, or come back when they find the key. If they choose to free him he tells them the location of the ogre lord and that he has lots of gold. If they don't have the Talisman Of Chaos in their possession he also tells them about the trap door if they haven't already found it and says that there's a powerful magical talisman down there that the two magicians plan on sending the ogres to retrieve but it's heavily guarded by the dead. Whether they have the amulet or not, he offers to join the heroes in exchange for letting him have the amulet and assures them that they can keep anything else they find. If they have the amulet and refuse to give it to him then he becomes an enemy monster and the heroes turns immediately end. If they don't have the amulet and refuse the deal he goes on his merry way, escaping using the route that the heroes used on their way in. If they accept the deal then he joins the heroes (controlled by the hero who set him free).

Don't you see at all how some may think this is too much?

Count Mohawk's cards are great; they are not complicated in their own right, but they would fit much better in an entire pack based around chaos and those monsters.
Instead we get a LOT of different stats for just 5 quests. That's a lot of fleshing out just for a single chapter.
Most of your ideas/rules are not complex in the sense they are hard to understand. It's complex because there are so many.
But it's not like you have a good idea and throw it up for discussion either. The tendency is that you just incorporate them straight away.

I can appreciate you wanting something different out of this, but really, at least try to listen or if this is not what you want (and I mean this the most friendly way possible) just do your own pack on your own premises.

[Gold Bearer]

Did you even read what followed that quote? Did you disagree with it?

Of course I read it, and I did agree. What does that have to do with it? That impllies that my I should be motivated by getting my own way rather than what I think is fair and right. I don't and couldn't do that, and that is fact a perfect example of one of the problems I'm having with you.

I'm getting real tired of this... This needs to end now.

I agree. It will end when you sort yourself out.

But Gold Bearer, YOU are the one with the attitude. If the above quotes were supposed to be funny somehow, they fell pretty flat.

That's extremely imature! Besides, do you think I judge the standard of my humour by what you (in this case the target of the point that I was making) find amusing? Now that is funny.

YOU are deflecting most criticism with either hostility or "well, I still think it's a great idea".
You claim to have your hands tied, but that doesn't seem to slow you down. We made a monster list but you keep adding new anyway. Why?

Stop trying to pretend I'm ignoring what has been agreed. You're really starting to piss me off now.

Let me illustrate:

http://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=199&t=2475

Page 1: What amounts to ~2 pages of story, in the middle of a quest pack; not intro or epilogue.
Page 2: 11 new monsters all with different special rules. Maybe more? I spotted a demon, swamplings and fogwalkers.
Page 8: 24 lines / 682 words of quest notes for a single quest. The following quote being one quest note:

1. It's an intro to the chapter. Do you not want it to have a story?

2. There's no new monsters! They're variations of existing and approved monsters.

3. That conveys rules and background to add a bit of tecture in as few words as possible, and it's already been slightly rewritten.

I can appreciate you wanting something different out of this, but really, at least try to listen or if this is not what you want (and I mean this the most friendly way possible) just do your own pack on your own premises.

I bet you'd love that but if you're not happy then you leave and work on your thing, please!

From now on I would kindly ask that unless you have something constructive to add you worry about what you're working on and make no further posts in this topic. Leave this chapter to the people that are writing it please.

Every official quest pack has a rules section before the quests and/or reference cards.

I'm not going to put time and energy into this making it the best that I can just to have someone like you come along and try to sabotarge it by ripping out everything that makes it interesting purely out of spite, but in the name of 'simplicity'.

[knightkrawler]

I think Goblin-King typed what others have been thinking. He is not the only one, I can attest to that.
I don't even feel the need to elaborate that, cause Goblin-King's last post is hereby QFT as I see things.

I do NOT wanna discourage you from working on quests with your own ideas, especially as I can't hold a candle in my burned-out uncreativeness.
But it all reads like quantity.
Now, these cards for the chaos warrior variants are nice. That is a fact. But for one quest?
Plus we agreed on additional monsters and opponents in a limited number. You know why? To actually make them worthwhile and focus a little on all of them.
I wanted the Kobolds with 1 AD and 2 DD and Slings because it's a whole new concept and offers an entirely different strategy for the EWP to use.

If you want four types of chaos warriors variants, present them in the quest notes as in
A) The Chaos Warriors in this room are worshippers of the Chaosgod of War. They both attack and defend with one additional combat die.
or
B) These Zombies are Fogwalkers who died and awoke in the swamp at the hands of a Fimir Hag. They have one additional Body point.

Is that so hard to do? We want something that in form and aura resembles the original quest packs, or else we could go and jump the GameZone train.

By the way, expanding on Games Workshop property by using names like Khorne and things that weren't used in original HQ, makes me nervous to say the least. We should be more creative than that. Kobolds as presented by me were influenced by D&D and Reaper minis, but I pulled them from the Underdark into the swamp. Please, no Games Workshop lore. It's dangerous and useless, at that.

[Gold Bearer]

Again, they're not new monsters! They're variations of existing ones. First you tried stopping us from using kobolds and fimir outside of the swamp chapter (with GG trying the exact opposite by suggesting we set the whole chapter back in the swamp after I'd last the last two quests of the chapter effectively eliminating those quests) and now you're trying to stop us from using the chaos gods which would only be a problem if were trying to make money out of it and is what this whole chapter is based on. fraggle off!

You two are obviously trying everything you can to stop this from being a decent chapter. Why?

[knightkrawler]

If you want four types of chaos warriors variants...

Again, they're not new monsters! They're variations of existing ones.

Anyone still bearing with me?

First you tried stopping us from using kobolds and fimir outside of the swamp chapter

Show me. Quote where I posted that.
I tried to stop you from using Kobolds and Swamp Goblins in one and the same quest, is what I did. And I gave reasons.

I also didn't tell you not to use the Chaos gods, I implied MERELY TO NOT CALL THEM KHORNE, SLAANESH, TZEENTCH, AND NURGLE!
Where in blazes is the freakin' problem with that? Pure and Proper Ego? What?

fraggle off!

Seriously?
I actually make constructive criticism how you could accomodate for the kind of "simplicity" WE have in mind and you tell me I'm after you and to fraggle off?