5. HQ25 - Spells, tiles, mechanics and misc

[Daedalus]

I'd suggest we work on some Chaos spells for the project. Here are some thoughts already posted about spell groups from this topic:

So what about chaos Dwarf Magic? I think using the regular Chaos Spells is appropriate, or adding a select few spells. Actually; why are we making the Fimir spells into a new deck anyways? Why not just pick the best 4-5, make up another few for the Chaos Dwarves and package the whole set of 9 as generic Chaos Spells so they are more versatile? It's not as if the fire Chaos Spells have different images on the back compared to say, the command and sleep spells!

I think we could make a deck of 6 spells (analogous to Wizards of Morcar) for the Fimir. They are thematically the Swamp spells because they live there. The name "Fimir spells" somehow doesn't sit with me well, cause the theme is lacking in name.
Remains a plethora of spell ideas that could make an additional 6 (or even 10 or 12) chaos spells to be assigned to (along with the game system ones) magicuser NPCs other than Fimir directly in the quests. Like the Kobold Whateverspellcasterwewriteupforthem.
That mixes it up a little.

Fimir use Swamp spells, and if you want to give your Fimir hag for one quest more variation you include some chaos spells.
All other spells we come up with could be Chaos spells. Or maybe we make another type of spellcaster who also gets 6 spells of his own.

I like the idea of Swamp Spells for this quest pack. Fimir can use them, but also any other Bog monster, like the kobolds, should someone use a kobold shaman.
We can of course draw inspiration from the Fimir spells, but we've got plenty of ideas already, so I think we're doing fine. And we all seem to be on the same page indeed

These are probably just ideas right now, and we need to review all spell ideas after we choose 6, and then reword them to fit on a card and be clear, so there won't be any misinterpretation.

As I see it, 6 Swamp spells and 6 Chaos spells could work nicely. While there have been sufficient ideas generated for Swamp spells, we shouldn't miss the opportunity to spice up other parts of the Quest Pack with some themed Chaos spells in the vein of the EQP and BQP. Beastmen and Chaos Dwarves need more definition, and even Kobolds and Cultists could benefit from more attention. Some ideas:

• Veil of Mist This spell may be cast on any one monster, including the spellcaster. On the monster's next move, it may move unseen through spaces that are occupied by Heroes. [A call for Fimir Fog spells got me thinking about this conversion, but it works great as a Chaos spell. It gives M/Z a much-needed trick for dealing with the stagnation of door-guarding.]
• Summon Beastmen This spell conjures up a group of Beastmen to surround and protect the spellcaster. Roll one red die:
  Roll a 1, 2, or 3 = 4 Beastmen
  Roll a 4 or 5 = 5 Beastmen
  Roll a 6 = 6 Beastmen
• Frenzy This spell causes any one Beastman to become so wild that it rolls an extra attack this turn.
• Shield of Protection This spell allows the spellcaster and all Beastmen in the same room to roll one extra combat die in defense until the beginning of the spellcaster's next turn. [This is a conversion of the Orc Shaman spell. Maybe change Beastmen to monsters]
• Summon Kobolds This spell conjures up a group of Kobolds to surround and protect the spellcaster. Roll one red die:
  Roll a 1, 2, or 3 = 3 Kobolds
  Roll a 4 or 5 = 4 Kobolds
  Roll a 6 = 5 Kobolds [Maybe the Kobold's mob ability over-powers this spell, but I hope tactical Heroes will be less vulnerable.]
• Sharpen Axes This spell allows all Chaos Dwarves in the same room or corridor as the spellcaster to roll an extra combat die in attack for this turn. [This is a conversion of the Orc Shaman spell. Maybe change Axes to Blades and maybe change Chaos Dwarves to monsters]
• Doom This spell forces a wave of despair upon any one Hero so that he defends with only one combat die. The effect can be broken at once or on a later turn by the Hero rolling one red die for each of his Mind Points. If a 6 is rolled, the effect is broken. [This is a Cultist ability conversion. It makes a Cultist's weak attack more effective at any Quest power level and makes monster team-ups scarier.]
• Mask of Chaos This spell focuses untold horror upon any one Hero. The victim must reroll any successfull Attack and Defend Dice on his next turn, accepting the second result. [This is a Cultist ability conversion.]
• Corruption This spell channels profane power upon any one Hero which inflicts 1 Body Point of damage for each Cultist in the room or corridor. The victim may resist by immediately rolling one red die for each of his Mind Points. For each 5 or 6 rolled, the damage is reduced by 1 point. [This is a mash-up of GK and CM's Cultist ability suggestions. Damage could be changed to a static 2 Body Points rather than a variable amount dependent on Cultists.]

[Daedalus]

Big Bene came up with some nice spell 'Tricks' for a lone-wolf Kobold Spellcaster with a folklore bent. Read about it in this post. From his next post:

OK, I couldn't resist.


Some texts for the kobold spell deck:

Invisibility:
The kobold (the spellcaster and only him) becomes invisible, including all clothing and carried items. The effect will last until the end of the kobold's next turn.
The figure is taken from the gameboard. The kobold doesn't move normally in this time, it is just assumed he could be everywhere in the same room he became invisible and, after he had the opportunity to move in his turn, also in one adjactant room, but not further. He may not go to places wich are "blocked" from his original square. He can attack and use spells normally. He cannot be shot or affected by magic that uses line of sight. If the heroes know in which room he is (i.e. before he had the opportunity to move or after he took an action), they may hit him by just wildly swinging their weapons. In this case, they hit the right place at a 6 on the red die, they can then make their normal attack (this also applies if another hero has already hit the kobold).
The kokbold becomes visible and the EWP returns the figure on any square in the room(s) he can be. If he took an action (attack, defend, magic) in his second turn, and has no movement left after this action, he must reappear in the room he took the action in. As he becomes visible at the and of his turn by definition, he cannot cast another spell directly after that, but remains visible at least until his next turn.

Three times in the deck.

Lousy:
The affected figure has a terrible itching, constantly scratching him or herself whenever possible. This is extremely distracting and reduces attack and defense by one die, movement by four squares (not less than one) and makes spellcasting difficult (1 red die +3 must not exceed the mind points of the caster or the spell will fumble. fumbled spells are not lost). The effects lasts 1D3 rounds.

Feary Gold:
The kobold may turn any non magical item or gold in the dungeon into "feary gold". It will appear and work normal until the heroes leave the dungeon or otherwise end the quest, when it will turn into rotten leaves. This may affect any treasure in the quest notes or such items and gold that the heroe players found in the treasure deck. E. g. if in two searches a hero has found 50 gold and 20 gold, the kobold may turn either 20 or 50 coins into feary gold, not all of it, and also not the gold the hero carried before.

Two left hands:
The affectec figure gets a second left hand in place of his right hand (left-handed figures get two right hands). This reduces his dexterity in an extreme way. He has two less of each attack and defense dice, three dice when using ranged weapons. Movement and spellcasting are not affected. The effect lasts for 1D3 turns, but don't tell the player.

Stumble:
The affected figure's movement is halved for one turn (in the case of heroes, this means 1 red die).

Balloon:
The affected figure hoovers about five feet over the ground and has no means to move other than pushing himself forward with his hands on the walls. He may move by only one die (halved movement if a monster is affected), and not move at all if not in contact with a wall. An allied figure may pull him, in which case he will always be on the square behind his friend (in direction of movement). Lasts 1D3 turns.

Unsheathe:
The belt of the affected figure, or whatever means he uses to hold up his trousers or skirt, suddenly opens and the garment slips down to his ankles, effectively entangling his feet. Movement is reduced to zero and attack is reduced by one dice. It takes an action to refit the clothing.

Titch:
The affected character's figure changes to a tiny, skinny body of about 18 inches from foot to neck, with an oversized head as big as a pumpkin. All clothes and armor change to fit the new size, weapons and other carreid items retain their size. The BP are halved from the current number (not the maximum), always rounded up. The character gets back the lost BP when the effect ends, but all BP he lost in the meanwhile are "real" and still lost.
Lasts 1D3 rounds.

Look behind you, a three headed fimir!:
The kobold creates an illusional monster anywhere in the room he is (he can make it seem entering therough an open door). It must be an individuum of the standard races (the ones in the basic game, including the chaos sorcerer) or of a race that is present in the same dungeon. The monster has the same statistics as his real counterpart. When "killed", it will disappear into nothing, and all wounds it made are "healed" (they were illusions, too), heroes that were "killed" by such wounds were merely uncouscious and awake one round later.

Furry:
The hair (including facial and body hair) of the affected figure grows in an extreme manner. This results in a mild distraction, reducing defense by one die until the character uses two actions to cut his hair. To do so, he needs a dagger or short sword. All actions that involve looks or charme have reduced chances of succes. To completely remove the effect, the character has to visit the barber between quests, paying 10 Gold (it's not a standard job).

'Nocking on dungeon's door:
The kobold can open or close a door in the room he is in.

Kobold magic card backside (draft):

kobkart.png

"The magic of kobolds is an inborn ability, it can not be learned by other races. It is treated like normal spells in the game rules (i. e. the evil wizard player has a deck of cards for the kobold, representing the spells, and can use every one of these once in a quest), for the sake of simplicity, but it is a very differnt thing in the game world.

The combat statistics given above represent a kobold carrying a dagger, which is their starting weapon. A kobold is too weak to carry any other weapon than a dagger or a sling or wear any armor."

[Daedalus]

You asked about input for your spell ideas that I liked from the Kobold topic.

I think the kernel of the text restricting Kobold Tricks should be presented in the introductory section of the Quest Pack and combined to cover Swamp Spells, as well. Basically, they aren't available as Chaos spells for Sorcerers.

As too many spells becomes unwieldy on the table and aren't all likely to be cast, I feel it's best to imitate Wizards of Morcar and choose just 6 spells for the set. My first drops would be Stumble, Balloon, and Furry. I like all the others, but next I'd lose Feary Gold (Quest treasure can be transformed in Quest Notes), Look Behind You, a Three-headed Fimir! (feels the most 'attacky'), and Nockin' on Dungeon's Door (opening a door can be done with Quest notes),

Invisibility: I like the hit and run set up you outline, but the text needs to be less situational to fit on a spell card. My thought is to use the Elf Spell Card Disappear without the cancelling roll, instead. Another (better?) way to go would be a spell similar to Escape, but limited to the Kobold's movement and remaining invisible and off the board. To retain the run and gun effect, a Kobold could possess the Wand of Magic and have more than one casting of Invisibility listed in the Quest Notes: cast a troublesome spell, then disappear and escape; rinse and repeat. Finally get the little bugger and you win a valuable artifact!
Isn't removal of the figure governed by what the Heroes "see"? (At least NA rules.) Perhaps that part of the spell text isn't needed. What do you think, as an EU player?
Lousy:Cool name and theme, but it feels a bit unfocused to me. I'd go with just reducing defense and preventing spell casting. The spell ends when the victim scratches with an unarmed attack (1 combat die) and causes 1 Body Point of damage to the "pests."
Feary Gold: I wouldn't have this spell affect Quest treasure--it negates the purpose of including it, in my opinion. I think it's enough to allow the spell to remove a gold-coin Treasure Card from a Hero. I'd leave affecting a gold-coin Quest treasure for the Quest Notes if you wanted to really set up the Heroes.
Two Left Hands: I'd focus this on reducing attack only to differentiate it from the others. I'm also partial to ending spells with rolls, Chaos Spell style: Roll one red die for each Mind Point immediately or on a future turn, break the spell if a 6 is rolled (or use combat dice.)
Stumble: I'd drop this move debuff in favor of the more potent Unsheathe.
Balloon: Colorful, but a bit complicated. I prefer Unsheathe as a simpler limit on movement.
Unsheathe: I like the conditional movement penalty. My preference is a defensive penalty to represent a lack ability to safely distance from an attack.
Titch: I like the temporary Body Point penalty. HQ avoids math, so I'd go with reducing Body Points to 1 (similar to Mind Freeze). I'd also allow the victim immediately or on a future turn to roll a red die for each of his Mind Points, breaking the spell with a 6. Losing this last Body Point causes a KO which lasts until the spell is broken with a 6. (May use combat dice, instead.)
Look behind you, a three headed fimir!: How about renaming this Wandering Monster or Phantasm? I'd limit the monster choice to just those from the Quest map--otherwise the Gargoyle will almost certainly be chosen over lesser monsters. (The players are wise to spell after the first cast, so voluntarily choosing any lesser monster won't matter.) Named monsters with variable stats or powers shouldn't be allowed, including Chaos Sorcerers.
Furry: I'd drop this one--lots of situation stuff that can't fit on a card well.
Nockin' on Dungeon's Door: I like this, but I'd rename it Gain Passage.

[Big Bene]

I think the kernel of the text restricting Kobold Tricks should be presented in the introductory section of the Quest Pack and combined to cover Swamp Spells, as well. Basically, they aren't available as Chaos spells for Sorcerers.

Fully agree

As too many spells becomes unwieldy on the table and aren't all likely to be cast, I feel it's best to imitate Wizards of Morcar and choose just 6 spells for the set. My first drops would be Stumble, Balloon, and Furry. I like all the others, but next I'd lose Feary Gold (Quest treasure can be transformed in Quest Notes), Look Behind You, a Three-headed Fimir! (feels the most 'attacky'), and Nockin' on Dungeon's Door (opening a door can be done with Quest notes),

Dunno. I tend to have cards piled up at the table, so another set always takes the same space, regardless of how many cards are in it. The spells of course won't be cast all during a single quest, but giveing the GM more choice makes for more diversity in the long run.
Don't get me wrong, I've asked your opinion and I don't want to reject it now, just to discuss the matter.

Invisibility: I like the hit and run set up you outline, but the text needs to be less situational to fit on a spell card...

I have to think this through again. some playtesting of the various approaches would really help. After the mechanics work out, I can think of a way to describe them in a short, card-fitting way.

Lousy:Cool name and theme, but it feels a bit unfocused to me. I'd go with just reducing defense and preventing spell casting. The spell ends when the victim scratches with an unarmed attack (1 combat die) and causes 1 Body Point of damage to the "pests."

OK.

Feary Gold: I wouldn't have this spell affect Quest treasure--it negates the purpose of including it, in my opinion. I think it's enough to allow the spell to remove a gold-coin Treasure Card from a Hero. I'd leave affecting a gold-coin Quest treasure for the Quest Notes if you wanted to really set up the Heroes.

I was not thinking about quest defining artifacts, but rather of the random "still usable shortsword".

Two Left Hands: I'd focus this on reducing attack only to differentiate it from the others. I'm also partial to ending spells with rolls, Chaos Spell style: Roll one red die for each Mind Point immediately or on a future turn, break the spell if a 6 is rolled (or use combat dice.)

I dunno. I thought 1W3 turns as a way to guarantee that the effect won't last long, even if the hero is unlucky. After all, it's rather restricting, and the kobold tricks are meant to be more annoying than harmful.

Stumble: I'd drop this move debuff in favor of the more potent Unsheathe.

Probably right.

Balloon: Colorful, but a bit complicated. I prefer Unsheathe as a simpler limit on movement.

If we are to reduce the spell to six and so have to drop some ones, you are probably right. But I'd vote for keeping all of them (see above) - of course only if they are good enough - so I would keep this one to, for it's "colorfulnes".

Nockin' on Dungeon's Door: I like this, but I'd rename it Gain Passage.

Why? The funny names are part of the concept. Being German, I don't know if the reference is really that "funny" at all, but that was the idea.

[Daedalus]

Spell set limits were never decided. I'm for less-is-more, but more-Is-more also has merit. Perhaps I'll work up a poll after the monsters are finalized. One issue I have is the overall count of all printed cards and their expense. We'll likely end up with 2-4 spell sets of 6-9 cards each, several artifacts, 6 Monster Cards, and perhaps several Treasure Cards. This could max at about 52 cards, which would be perfect for a card-company printed set. On the other hand, I think we could keep the count down to a minimum of 24 cards if we wanted to, about halving the local/home-print card cost.

Feary Gold: Since the treasure won't be lost until the end of the Quest, how to signify this? Tap the spell card? This works as an 'attack' for purposes of invisibility, etc, right? Would it wake a Hero under an EU Sleep spell, for instance?

Two Left Hands: How about breaking on a 5 or 6 to shorten the spell? Even a dumb Barbarian should manage it in 1-3 turns. To make sure a Wizard is affected, only allow rolls for future turns. Of course, rolling a red die for duration also works--it's mostly a difference of style of gameplay. I like players actively rolling to break a spell rather than passively waiting for an effect to end-- it's tactically less predictable.

Nockin' on Dungeon's Door: I think of Bob Dylan's song. If that's the reference, I get it. Maybe the contemporary reference is just my problem--some go for that. Admittedly, my name is dry. How about Knock-Knock? Does that translate poorly or lack humor? I'm looking for something shorter.

[Big Bene]

Spell set limits were never decided. I'm for less-is-more, but more-Is-more also has merit. Perhaps I'll work up a poll after the monsters are finalized. One issue I have is the overall count of all printed cards and their expense. We'll likely end up with 2-4 spell sets of 6-9 cards each, several artifacts, 6 Monster Cards, and perhaps several Treasure Cards. This could max at about 52 cards, which would be perfect for a card-company printed set. On the other hand, I think we could keep the count down to a minimum of 24 cards if we wanted to, about halving the local/home-print card cost.

This is certainly a matter of opinion. A poll may indeed be the best way to decide. I only fear that participants would vote in a "generic" manner - if I would be asked if I would like to have the content streamlined, I would probably vote "yes", but when I would go more into it and read the individual contributions, I would rather vote for "include them all". It's kind of a psychological trap...
Another thought - while treasures etc. really need to be printed on cards - they have to look the same from the backside, be easy to shuffle etc, to enable the randomizing effect of drawing, spells could as well be printed out on simple leaflets. Less atmpheric, perhaps (though they could be seen as "scrolls"), but not a problem in game mechanics.

Feary Gold: Since the treasure won't be lost until the end of the Quest, how to signify this? Tap the spell card? This works as an 'attack' for purposes of invisibility, etc, right? Would it wake a Hero under an EU Sleep spell, for instance?

Not very significant in the short run. This trick affecs gold - and gold is per se not intended to be used until the end of the quest. This hardly makes it insignificant. The effect carries over into the next quest(s). Same for equipment. While heroes can use it in the same quest, destroying it is mainly a long-run effect.

Two Left Hands: How about breaking on a 5 or 6 to shorten the spell? Even a dumb Barbarian should manage it in 1-3 turns. To make sure a Wizard is affected, only allow rolls for future turns. Of course, rolling a red die for duration also works--it's mostly a difference of style of gameplay. I like players actively rolling to break a spell rather than passively waiting for an effect to end-- it's tactically less predictable.

Given my luck with dice, I can easily see me throwing 1-4 for the rest of the game. It also requires an added player action (dice roll) every round. But I can also see the benefit in using the MP, which is rare enough. Well, again, it's a matter of opinon.

Nockin' on Dungeon's Door: I think of Bob Dylan's song. If that's the reference, I get it. Maybe the contemporary reference is just my problem--some go for that. Admittedly, my name is dry. How about Knock-Knock? Does that translate poorly or lack humor? I'm looking for something shorter.

Actually, I first thought of "knock-knock" (because of the D&D spell "knock"). Thought Nockin' on Dungeon's Door to be funnier. But I can see how the contemporary reference can kill the mood for some players. I would be finde with "knock-knock".

[Daedalus]

Spell set limits were never decided. I'm for less-is-more, but more-Is-more also has merit. Perhaps I'll work up a poll after the monsters are finalized. One issue I have is the overall count of all printed cards and their expense. We'll likely end up with 2-4 spell sets of 6-9 cards each, several artifacts, 6 Monster Cards, and perhaps several Treasure Cards. This could max at about 52 cards, which would be perfect for a card-company printed set. On the other hand, I think we could keep the count down to a minimum of 24 cards if we wanted to, about halving the local/home-print card cost.

This is certainly a matter of opinion. A poll may indeed be the best way to decide. I only fear that participants would vote in a "generic" manner - if I would be asked if I would like to have the content streamlined, I would probably vote "yes", but when I would go more into it and read the individual contributions, I would rather vote for "include them all". It's kind of a psychological trap...

Hmm...maybe an open count poll would help. Say 6 spell groups were suggested by Inn members altogether, a member would vote on any groups wanted. From there, the top choices might become evident.

Another thought - while treasures etc. really need to be printed on cards - they have to look the same from the backside, be easy to shuffle etc, to enable the randomizing effect of drawing, spells could as well be printed out on simple leaflets. Less atmpheric, perhaps (though they could be seen as "scrolls"), but not a problem in game mechanics.

Good point about matching card backs and shuffling. I thought the consensus for spell groups was to create new card backs, as in WoM. No shuffling issue with that. Personally, I'd like to see some new Chaos spells, so matching cards would be an issue. Adding Treasure Cards is also problematic. Separate reference sheets for the decks could certainly work, but I would like to keep the HQ card-draw mechanic.

Perhaps the original decks are drawn from as usual, but certain cards are substituted with new ones. For instance, Say Cultists randomly draw a Chaos spell. If an overpowered spell is drawn that can affect more than one Hero, it is discarded and a spell is drawn from the new Chaos Spell Cards in its place. Chaos Sorcerers would still be assigned specific spells, so all new Chaos spells would have the opportunity to see use.

For Treasure Cards, a Hero who draws a gold coins could opt to discard it and draw from the new Treasure Cards, which would be in a nearby, separate deck. Could be interesting if some of the new cards were better than gold coins, but some were worse.

[j_dean80]

With the size difference of EU and NA cards...I had an issue incorporating EU treasure cards into my game. In the end I went with 2 separate treasure card piles and the Hero can draw from the deck of their choosing. Seems to work just fine. A similar approach could work for this.

[Spookyhappyfun]

Is there a reason we're not just using the regular cardbacks for things like Chaos Spells and Treasures?

I've probably just missed the explanation since I'm coming in in the middle of all this and trying to get caught up.

Is there not going to be an EU and NA version of all of the things for this?

[Daedalus]

There are two issues I'm aware of. As for the Treasure Cards Big Bean mentioned above, there isn't an ideal way of matching them to the original deck that comes with the game. Issues include color matching, card size and thickness, and getting the corners right. The Treasure Cards were meant to be a single deck for random draws. That means having identically backed cards--ideally. A Treasure deck of all cards would need to be printed (expensive), or a separate deck and new draw mechanic would be necessary. The other option is to omit new Treasure Cards altogether, but that is less fun.

The other issue discussed in a previous thread was that many Inn members favored themed spell groups similar to those found in Wizards of Morcar. That means new card art is needed for the backs of Swamp spells, at least. It is possible to go with just Chaos spell card backs, but the difficulty is in reaching a consensus that it is best solution . . . and the cards won't exactly match for a single set with those of NA Game Systems. The devil is in the details.

Creating separate EU and NA versions could solve some issues by providing choice, however. I wouldn't mind alternative card styles and backs for both.